.38 Snubby vs .357 Mag Snubby

[44]

9mm vs .357

Some data from Evan Marshall in the 1999 G&A Annual, p 26, in an article where he chrono'd these two guns with various loads.

My extract, comparing approx same bullet weights:

KAHR 9mm MK9, 3" BARREL
----- Cor-bon 124 +P...................1134 fps
----- Triton 125 +P......................1192
----- CCI 124 +P+.......................1264
----- Win 127 +P+.......................1154

S&W .357 640 stainless, 2.125" BARREL
----- Win 125..............................1144
----- Fed 125..............................1238 (I get 1180 from 340PD 1.9" barrel)
----- Cor-bon 125........................1166
----- Triton 125...........................1190
----- Rem 125.............................1239

Although this info is four years old, it shows how close the 9mm and .357 velocities are in these two pocket-sized guns. 44

 

[WebHobbit]

Interesting. One thing is certain the 9mm standard pressure doesn't come close.

Also those 9mm loads from a snub revolver would likely be a bit lower FPS.

 

[Gary A]

Webhobbit - The velocity from a two inch snub 9mm may not be less than a three inch semi-auto and it might even be a bit more. Dick Metcalf, Wiley Clapp and others have written numerous times about this. There will be some loss from the barrel-cylinder gap, true. However, the available length of bore in a two inch snub is more like 3.5 inches compared to the 3 inches of the MK9. That extra bore length may well more than offset the gap loss. At least that is the gist of their arguments and the ballistics they claim seem to bear it out. A snub 9mm is not my cup of tea (although I've had a couple) mostly because I think the moon clips are a pain in the rear, but they do seem to be pretty ballistically efficient. I don't think that equivalent loads in the 9mm are appreciably softer shooting than .357s though. 115 grain plus Ps feel a lot like 110 grain .357s to me from equivalent guns.

 

[WebHobbit]

Gary A -- that's right! I remember those articles now. I stand corrected.

 

[DBR]

One thing that is often overlooked in "perceived recoil" is the shape of the bullet's acceleration curve. Equal weight bullets with the same muzzle velocity do not get there the same way in different calibers. Small cases like the 9mm tend to have higher initial acceleration leading to a sharper but less sustained recoil impulse. Loads like the 357 have flatter acceleration curves but much higher "ejecta" velocity leading to a more powerful, sustained, recoil impulse. In other words, for the same muzzle velocity and bullet weight, a 357 is likely to result in more muzzle blast and muzzle rise. The bottom line is the 357 is less efficient in a short barrel than the 9mm.

 

[22luvr]

Having shot LOTS of .38 and .357 snubs....

I'd have to say I think, at close-range, a .357 blank would knock a perp right on his arse.

 

[twoblink]

Here's my Logistical(TM) take on this:

I own a 2.5" Snubbie 357Mag. If I decide my hand hurts, I load it up with 38's. No problem. See, logistically, I can buy a 357Mag and decide if I want to shoot it or 38's, but I can't do it the other way around, and so I'd go with the 357Mag from a logistics standpoint. That way, there's no way you can be disappointed with your choice, as by choosing 357, you choose both.

That said, a 357 is a totally different beast than a 38. Don't believe me? Take a 2.5" snubbie, and do what we call "semi-russian roulette". Have a friend load it up with 38's, and one of them load it up with 357.

Pop..Pop...Pop... B A N G!!

Yeah, if you've felt it in your hand, so will the guy on the receiving end of the bullet.

200+ ft difference, even if the 38's are +P.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SHOOT WHAT YOU CAN AIM WELL WITH.

That's the answer...

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

If interested, there's a little bit of chronograph data there.

Best.

 

[Rob96]

When comparing a Taurus M85 I had with the 2.25" SP-101 I own, the recoil with the Taurus felt harder with 158gr +p's than the SP-101 loaded up with Winchester 110gr JHP's and Remingtons 125gr GS load.

 

[22luvr]

Hey Twoblink....I've done just that!

Being a real snubby fan, I've randomly loaded .357's and .38's in my revolvers, then shot them off, in an effort to cut down on "flinchitis," that dread disease of those who shoot too many honkin' .357 loads out of their little wheelguns.

The difference in muzzle/gap flash, recoil, and blast concussion are night and day. You're right....."bang, bang, BOOM!!, bang....etc" The Gap flash on my old beater Rossi .357 mag lights up the indoor range like a flashbulb.

Daggone little wheelguns are downright primitive and uncivilized, laced with an element of menacing danger. As much as I love them too, most autoloaders are so "grey flannel suit" to me; I guess that's why I LOVE shooting the big bangers through my snubs!

 

[braindead0]

The following data is from Remington's web-site:

9mm

124 JHP 1120 FPS (4 inch test barrel)
Golden Saberâ„¢ 124 BJHP +P 1180 FPS (4 inch test barrel)


.357 Magnum

125 SJHP 1450 FPS (4 inch test barrel)
Golden Saberâ„¢ 125 BJHP 1220 FPS (4 inch test barrel)

The problem here is that the .357 load appears to be way underpowered, probably they worry about people using it in ultra light snubbies.

I can use factory load info (not even max) and get 1600fps in a 4" barrel with no problem (same load clocks 1800 in an 8" barrel)..

Probably need to compare full power loads for both.

 

[Tango Sierra]

>>My buddy claims that in two inch length barrels and at a close in, self defense,combat distance of inside 10 feet the .38spl+P is equally effective as a man stopper as is the .357mag.<<

I think the above statement, as worded, is correct if the right choice of ammo is used.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

Based on these tests I load my 38 snubbie with Winchester +P 130-grain SXT Personal Protection.

 

[PCRCCW]

We did a bunch of chrono tests with 5 different snubs....many years ago.

We tested 6 +P 38 loads and more 357 loads......Ive got the data somewhere..but the average for the +P was around 800-850 FPS for 124-127gr loads. The 357 averaged 1150-1200 FPS for the same weight bullet.

All snubs were 2-2 1/2" barrels..sp, taurus, s&W etc.

Simply put its a trade off.....
with a 38 in +P you have "generally", not the rule, quicker follow up shots and less recoil, blast etc. But youre running an average of 200-220 FPE..........like a stout .380.

The 357 DOES recoil, blast and flash more..but you have OVER or at least 400 FPE....like a +P 9mm from the average semi auto.

To me its a NO BRAINER...give me a 357 anyday of the week.

IMO, and again Im no ballistics expert either....muzzle pressure etc hmmmmmmmmmmmm anyway.

A round that is traveling an average of 2-300+ FPS faster and packs "2" times the energy than the special...CANNOT be its equal.

Physically, logically or rationally.........no contest.

Shoot well.

 

[wunderkind]

Aesthetics

There's something about the graceful lines of a .38 snub. The .357's don't seem as classically proportionate.

That's not a good scientific reason why I like the .38 snubs, but it works for me.

A j-frame .38, or a nice copy, with some nice grips and a leather belt slide makes a nice looking carry rig.

If science/ballistics were the sole factors, I'd have to join the subcompact 9/.40/.357 Sig camp.

If I were servicing ATM's in an 'urban' setting, I'd prefer a G17 with 17+1 Gold Dot +p. But for an out-the-door gun, the .38 snub is hard to beat.

The .38 snub has helped to keep the caliber alive. Must be something to it!

 

[Son of John]

.357 all the way

I say go the .357 route. You are getting a more durable, versatile gun than one in .38 only. If it is built for .357, .38 will be very low stress for the frame.

Try .38 at first, move into .357 loads gradually. If .357 is too much, you can always go back to .38 or .38+P later.

 

[SnWnMe]

I picked a 38 when I bought an Airweight J frame because:


a) I wasn't man enough to handle 357s out of sub one pound wheelguns.

But:

b) I believe in training the way I play. Which means no subbing 38s for 357s in practice.

And:

c) I didn't want to pay a serious premium for a feature I will not use in my little J frame.

In my POV, a 38 makes more sense. Less stopping power? Perhaps. Do the little wheels in my head go whirring at night over it? Not at all.

 

[MK11]

Just to comment on the 686P, it's not bad at all. The only problem I've had is with that stupid exposed backstrap hammering my hand over lengthy shooting sessions. It's also a BIG gun. Standard .38s feel like .22s. In something that size, I'd load up on the nastiest maggies you can find.

I agree on the SP101, that's the only true .357 snubbie I can shoot decently. Great gun.

 

[Mushinto]

Ballistics aside, I carry a 340PD. Even with .38s, the longer cylinder will decrease the chance of bullet-jumping with heavy bullets. This was a big concern when the first "Ti" revolvers came out. Smith even put out a warning not to use heavy lead bullets. With the longer cylinder, this should not be a concern and I have not had any problems with my 158 gr. LSWCHPs.
Note, I always carry magnums in my Model 60 and it is controllable enough.
ML

 

[Gary A]

Mushinto, you raise an interesting point. There was a time, I believe, when Smith and Wesson, as a cost-cutting measure, made the cylinders of their .38s and .357s the same length, merely changing the depth at which the shoulder was cut. Are you saying the 340PD has a longer cylinder than, say, the 342PD? If so, I think you have come up with a great reason to choose the 340. If not, then I can't see how it would help prevent bullet jump. I'm gonna have to check this out. Thanks.

 

[280PLUS]

i wonder,,,

if the statement kind of suggests that .38 will do the job so .357 might be overkill?

me, i opted for the s&w 332 lightweight j frame in .32 H&R Mag, i just got a 100 gr Georgia Arms round out of it measured at 977 fps

someone 'round here calculated that (crsam i think) to 212 ft-lbs

that aint bad

why did i choose this size round?

#1. it probably will not go through and through and hit an innocent

#2. six rounds in the cylinder as opposed to the 5 you get with .38 or .357

#3. much more controllable in a lightweight frame than the .38 or .357

#4. Comfortable/fun to shoot which encourages (as opposed to DIScourages) practice with it

 

[atlctyslkr]

I'd hate to have to let loose a .357 out of a snub indoors and at night. If you don't hit your target you're blind, deaf, and vulnerable! A snub .357 is versatile. Load it with .38's inside and .357's for the street.

 

[nelson133]

I carry an SP101 because I want to shoot a .357 for defense and the lighter .357s have too much recoil for reliable control for me. I had the Ruger Magnaported to reduce muzzle rise for quicker follow up shots. Having shot it both ways, it really does work.

 

[Trumpetman]

As for snubbies, I chose a 24-ounce Rossi in .38 special. I carry Gold Dot 135 "short-barrel" +P defense ammo, and I practice mostly with 158-grain SWC +P handloads to simulate the recoil, which is not bad anyway in such a heavy gun. Actually, my handloaded practice ammo feels stouter than the Gold Dots. The point of aim is very similar between these two rounds.

I also carry a 4" barrel .357 magnum in my "plumber's crack." It's loaded with 125-grain Gold Dots.

My extra carry ammo is the Gold Dot 135-grain .38 special +P for both guns. That way I can't get mixed up in the event of an extended gun battle.

I feel confident that either gun will do the job.

 

[Boats]

My home defense revolver is a SS 4" Ruger GP-100. I never shoot .38Spec out of that piece because it tames .357 Magnum so well and I have it POA/POI zeroed in with 158 gr Gold Dots.

My "street" revolver is a Colt DS. It is a better blend of concealability, shootability and full six shot capability than any .357 Magnum snubbie I have tried with the exception of the Ruger SP-101. Alas, the Ruger is five shot.

My personal preference was this: I have to account for every shot I unleash. The Colt is more shootable than the J-Frame and in snubs, .38Spec is more shootable than is .357 Mag. I'd rather have the sixth shot than the extra horsepower, especially since the Colt is lethally accurate inside of fifty feet.

That said, as much as I love the DS, it doesn't keep me from looking for a Colt Magnum Carry or toying with the idea of moving "up" to an SP-101.

 

[Helstrm]

I carry a S&W Model 638 Bodyguard as a back up on my ankle. I feel like the 38+P will do the job if for some reason I have been relieved of my .45 side arm.

When I purchased the 38 I based my decision on what I would be using the gun for. Since it was for a backup I chose the smaller lighter of the 2. If this was going to be my primary I would opt for the 357 because you have more options on ammo.