.357 Mag vs .38 +P in 2" snubbie

[Confederate]

First, any .357 mag round will outperform any .38 Spc with the same bulllet. Second, any .357 will handle any .38 round available, and third, most good .357s can be comfortably shot with a good pair of neoprene grips. (I have a Ruger Speed-Six with Pachmayer round-butt grips that is very comfortable to shoot.) For the life of me, I can't understand people who go with 2-inch revolvers of any kind, especially magnums.)

I used to have a two-shot derringer that fired .357s, and as much as they hurt the hand, I could use it in an emergency. It was unreliable, though.

 

[ArmedBear]

Landric, I specifically wrote Gold Dot "Short Barrel" .357, which, like you, I don't consider to be real magnums. However, I'm guessing that a lot of people would be using them in a Scandium gun, since real magnums are not controllable enough IMO. (If I can't shoot all the rounds in it accurately and quickly one-handed, it's not a defensive handgun.) And by doing so, they're hardly getting anything a .38+P doesn't give them.

Both of your guns are heavy. I have a lightweight snubbie for .38+P, and a steel one for real .357 magnums. Pocket carry is a lot more practical with the lightweight, but shooting real magnums in it isn't practical. Had you read my post, that would have been pretty clear.

The SP101 is a pretty bulky gun, for a 5-shot snubbie, and has Ruger's signature sharp edges all around it. Not one that I'd choose.

 

[ArmedBear]

For the life of me, I can't understand people who go with 2-inch revolvers of any kind, especially magnums.

Do you carry a gun often? What about more than one?

 

[Prosser]

Mr. Camps' article answered your question, more or less.

My experience is the most I can shoot out of a 360 PD snubbie is:
Fioochi's 148 grain Partially jacketed bullets, at 1131 fps
Buffalbore 158's .38 Plus P's, that go 1040 fps,
and,
discontinued
Corbon 125's at 1204 fps.

Anything more in a scandium, and, I either have a cut finger, or want to go back to something that's comfortable to shoot, like a .500 Linebaugh.

There are 9mm guns that will do 125's at 1200 fps, and, be more controllable, due to about 25% more weight, my Kahr PM 9 being one. Still, nothing is as easy to throw in a pocket as the 360PD, and, anything that is, is anemic in comparision.

On the otherhand, embrace the insanity. The flash bang grenade type flash
at point blank range, which is the limit of my shooting range, and better be in
the PRK for self-defense, can have some great results, making bad guys want to go the other way.

"Yes, officer, I can describe the bad guy. His hair is on fire, he's blind, and he's running down the street yelling for help!"


I guess S&W wised up, and, they added another 1/2" to the nighthawk series guns. This should give you decent ballistics, if not great.

3" would be REAL .357.

I do think there is a place for a heavy bullet .357 load, around 180-200 grain HP, but, at about 950-1100 fps, with a quick burning powder for snubs, or maybe a little less, like 950 fps. Why? I think the .38 is marginal on penetration with our current loadings, and, a heavier bullet at this speed might give that bit of added penetration I'm looking for.

Keep in mind that the Buffalobore Plus P 158 load only goes 15" in Gello, and that might be out of a REAL gun. All of the heavy bullet loads for the .357 I've shot have been too heavily loaded for a snubby, designed for hunting, with
too much recoil.

 

[ArmedBear]

Anything more in a scandium, and, I either have a cut finger, or want to go back to something that's comfortable to shoot, like a .500 Linebaugh.

LOL

I wholeheartedly concur.

However, I can shoot my 2 1/4" Model 60 with 158 grain full house handloads (16.5 grains IMR 4227 that I loaded for bigger guns), one-handed, no problems. Like I said, effective one-handed shooting is one of my specs for defense, not "can I hang onto it with both hands".

It's amazing how much of a difference 12 oz. or so can make. Maybe less than 12 oz.

 

[RustyHammer]

I love a good debate; however, in reality, anything you would be shooting at with a 2" revolver (close distance) wouldn't really care which you were using. It all comes down to location, location, location ...

 

[ArmedBear]

Rusty, I agree.

That's why my Model 60 is primarily an unobtrusive trail carry gun, like when I'm out hunting with birdshot and want a badger stopper on my belt just in case my dog gets into it with one.

Around town, a 642 in my pocket is convenient, concealed, and plenty powerful enough.

 

[Landric]

ArmedBear, none of my comments were directed at you, more in general about all the bad information I have heard on the topic on the internet and in gun shops over the last several years.

I find the SP101 to be an excellent pocket gun. Yes, its heavy, but it makes up for that by being more shootable than lightweight revolvers.

 

[Cayoot]

I really like my 3 3/16" SP-101 (.357 Mag). I carry it usually IWB, but sometimes I just slip it into my back jeans pocket. It rides well and stays hid under my shirt for a quick run into town.

However, I'm not a fan of hollow points. I throw the .357 Speer SB load in when I'm going to be in town all day, but usually I prefer SWC. I really like a 175 grn SWC (#358429) in my normal EDC (S&W 686+ w/3 3/4 inch tube). But I have a problem with bullet pull when shooting those in my little Ruger, so I go with a little 165 grn GC SWC.

Either way, I know the bullet will reach the bone/organ that needs to be modified.

Just my opinion tho.

 

[jim243]

That's interesting, an almost 4 year old thread, goes hot yesterday. Well the debate goes on, or so it seems. Since I too use a 2.25 inch SP-101 I found the coments interesting, I am not sure the Ruger SP-101 was in production when this thread first started. I was going to say that the person should get Houge grips for their 357, untill I looked at the date of the post. I don't know about everone else, but use 110 grain 38 spl for practice and 124 grain JHP 357 mag for carry. All else can use what works best for them.

Jim

 

[Marvin KNox]

A good debate sometimes never ends - even after several years. The reason is that folks don't like to change long cherished beliefs - no matter where the facts lead.

The facts are that a good modern .38+p will do the job under most conditions. It will open up fully and penetrate adequately.

Under adverse conditions such as odd angles or certain clothing barriers a good .357 will give a bit of a margin of performance that will be welcome.

If one chooses the wrong bullet for his .357, it will perhaps not perform as well as a "well chosen" .38+p bullet.

If the shooter can handle a little extra blast and recoil, the .357 will be the better choice for him. If he can't, he's better off with a .38+p. (Always assuming that the shooter has the knowledge to select proper bullets for self defense.)

These things hold true whether shooting a 4" or a 2" barreled gun - even if the longer barrel always performs better with either round.

People who disagree are either simply uninformed of the facts or are being obstinate. It's all been researched and discussed before.

But, to me at least, it never grows old hearing people argue guns and ammo.

 

[Willy G.]

I was looking at the S&W 340 for the .357/38/+P option but went with the S&W 442 for the price.

 

[Prosser]

DThh

 

[Prosser]

However, I can shoot my 2 1/4" Model 60 with 158 grain full house handloads (16.5 grains IMR 4227 that I loaded for bigger guns), one-handed, no problems. Like I said, effective one-handed shooting is one of my specs for defense, not "can I hang onto it with both hands".

It's amazing how much of a difference 12 oz. or so can make. Maybe less than 12 oz.
__________________

That added 12 oz does a couple things.
First, it cuts the recoil speed in HALF. 45 fps down to a liveable 20-30 fps.

Next, it takes a 15 oz pocket gun, and makes it a holster only gun.

I really like my 3 3/16" SP-101 (.357 Mag). I carry it usually IWB, but sometimes I just slip it into my back jeans pocket. It rides well and stays hid under my shirt for a quick run into town.

However, I'm not a fan of hollow points. I throw the .357 Speer SB load in when I'm going to be in town all day, but usually I prefer SWC. I really like a 175 grn SWC (#358429) in my normal EDC (S&W 686+ w/3 3/4 inch tube). But I have a problem with bullet pull when shooting those in my little Ruger, so I go with a little 165 grn GC SWC.

I would like to see this one. Can't see sitting on a 3", nor that it would fit in a jeans pocket...

That said, the real problem with either caliber, using light bullets, is you can throw a TON of velocity at those light bullets, and, unless you use a solid, they still expand, and, stop quickly in the target. Heck, you can shoot a 185 grain .44 magnum bullet at 1600 fps, and still only get 15" of gello penetration.

If you look at this page:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

one does come to the conclusion that most .357 loads out of a 2" really aren't, anymore.
At least from this sampling. Real world results for me, out of a 360PD, gave me 1204 fps with a Corbon 125 grain HP they show at 904 fps out of a two inch. That's a HUGE difference, so maybe Corbon changed the powder. the same weight DPX goes 1050 fps, so I have to think they went to a faster powder.

What I usually come away with is .357 Magnum should have a barrel length at least equal to the first number in the caliber, in inches.

There is a REAL good argument if the barrel is shorter then that, that you should be using some sort of flat point projectile, at 1200 fps or so.

I did just find this:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer 125 grain Gold Dot hollowpoint.html

So, if you can get 1432 fps, in .357, the bullet will go 16" of gello, and expand to .651"
Can't do that with a 2". 3" maybe, 4" yes, easy.

If you are going to rely on .38 special wadcutters, the bullet does not have to be heavy to get excellent penetration:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo...r standard pressure Hard Cast Wad Cutter.html

Finally the 158 grain HP .38 special, at least from Remington, sucks penetration wise, 11"


http://www.brassfetcher.com/158 grain +P lead HP (test 2).html

Finally, in a .38, there is no magic bullet. The Corbon fancy DPX still sucks penetration wise, at 11".

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Cor-Bon 110gr +P DPX all copper hollowpoint (Heavy clothing test).html

 

[rd2007]

I took advantage of the time change yesterday evening to do some unscientific tests of different ammunition with my SP101 .357 Magnum. I had read that the flash of the .357 round will blind you and that concerned me, so that was the main part of my test. We got to the range at around 5:30 PM and it was completely dark by 6:00, so it was a great opportunitly to see the flash and determine what it would do. There were lights on the range, but not many and the flash was very evident. I shot four different rounds: Monarch .357 158 gr, Hornady LEVERevolution .357 140 gr, Winchester .38+P (details unkown), and some bulk cheapo Remington .38 Specials again with unknown additional details. As far as flash, my son and I both thought the order from worst (most) to best was Remington, Winchester, Monarch, Hornady. The .357 Magnums had minimal flash and WAY less than the .38 Special and + P. The Remington had a huge amount of flash and the +P was a close second. The only one that could compare with them was the Mosquito shooting Mini Mag .22LRs, which pretty much spits straight fire, powder, and smoke.
When it came to "hurting" the order almost reversed: Monarch, Hornady, Remington, Winchester. I couldn't see the .38 or +P hurting until I got a couple hundred rounds through them and the .357s definitely let you know there's some power in your hands. However, if you really needed it, would you really fire more than five rounds of .357 Magnum? Even if you only get one direct hit, that's probably going to be the end of the battle right there. I would definitely not want to get hit by one of those. The noise alone is enough to make everyone jump.
So my verdict is I am going to stick with the Hornady's in .357 Magnum. The flash is minimal, the sound is going to scare the crap out of everyone around you as well as probably hurt your hearing for a while, and I'm a big enough guy to handle the round. I also let an older (probably in his 60's) gentleman test out the .357 round and he got a big 'ol smile on his face, but said one was enough for his lifetime.. He definitely was not a good candidate for the .357 round because he nearly had the gun pop out of his hand. It is a very special round that should only be used by people that actually appreciates it.

 

[ArmedBear]

Next, it takes a 15 oz pocket gun, and makes it a holster only gun.

I have one of each, though as I said, I see no point in shelling out an extra $300+ to shoot .357 from the pocket gun.

However, I can and do carry the Model 60 in my pocket. It's about the maximum I'd want to, and it's not great for hiking many miles, but for running errands around town, it works fine. I also carry it in IWB and OWB holsters.

I wouldn't buy a steel gun as an exclusively pocket-carried gun, but it works fine for that when appropriate. I'm not particularly large, tall, or oddly-shaped, either.

 

[armsmaster270]

The S&W snubbies are actualy under 2" I think 1 7/8" I carry .357's in my 340PD but it is not my primary it's a BUG.

 

[ArmedBear]

The S&W snubbies are actualy under 2" I think

Typically, the alloy frame guns have 1 7/8" barrels, and the steel guns have 2 1/8".

Why aren't they all just 2"? I don't know.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I only have one snubbie... a 1 7/8" SW Airweight. I could not imagine for the life of me shooting a full house 357 out of a gun that small and light. I reserve the 357's for my 4" GP100. The snubbie Smith holds 38 +P... good enough for me.

I might consider 357 for a steel-frame snub like an SP101, but this little sub-15oz'er would kick like a mule if it fired 357's.

 

[snooperman]

the 38 special is plenty good

I do have a Ruger SP101 and from time to time carry it, but mostly it is my truck gun. I keep Gold dots in it, as well as some other +Ps. The key is shot placement more than anything else. I carry, on a daily basis IWB, the Colt Detective loaded with Gold Dots and feel well protected. I have good control and quick follow-up shots with this firearm. I have on occasion carried my Ruger Speed Six loaded with hot .357 magnums as it easy to manage and control. You need to experiment with what works for you. It isn't as much about ammo as it is about you knowing your gun and shot placement. My wife also carries a Charter Arms 32 H&R magnum and it will work for her very well as she is very good with it. My 2 cents

 

[Landric]

Prosser said:

That added 12 oz does a couple things.
First, it cuts the recoil speed in HALF. 45 fps down to a liveable 20-30 fps.

Next, it takes a 15 oz pocket gun, and makes it a holster only gun.

That is a matter of opinion. I carry a 2 1/4" DAO SP101 in my front pocket everyday. In fact, its in my pocket as I type this. I don't have any trouble carrying or concealing it in such a manner.

If you look at this page:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

Then you will be misinformed if you take their results, obtained in a Contender, as having anything to do with results from a revolver with a similar barrel measurement.

one does come to the conclusion that most .357 loads out of a 2" really aren't, anymore.
At least from this sampling. Real world results for me, out of a 360PD, gave me 1204 fps with a Corbon 125 grain HP they show at 904 fps out of a two inch. That's a HUGE difference, so maybe Corbon changed the powder. the same weight DPX goes 1050 fps, so I have to think they went to a faster powder.

Nope, its just that they are including the chamber in their barrel measurement, whereas the barrel measurement on revolvers does not include the cylinder/chamber length. When they shoot .357 loads out of their 2" barreled Contender, they are actually only giving the cartridge about 1/2" of barrel, not 2". The average OAL of a .357 Magnum cartridge is between 1.500" and 1.600". That is the reason for the difference in results.

 

[NMGonzo]

"A snubby with .357 loads in hand beats my 5 1/2 inch .44 in the safe"

ME!

 

[V1ROT8]

Always remember...what do you feel comfortable with? Get in to a situation and the last thing you need to be worrying about is what kind of ammo you will be using against a bad guy in a bad situation.

 

[TomADC]

I have a few Federal Hydro shocks in 38 spl these are a few years old but look like a 38 spl full wadcutter but they are a hollow point with a post down the middle, I shot a few into a chunk of duct seal clay they performed well IMHO got to maybe the size of a 1/2 dollar or .50 piece, I keep them in my Tours 85 and Smith 19 snb nose revolvers.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I actually tested this. Get 4 thik phone books and tie 2 sets of 2 together with a heavy string. Then soak them in water for 4 hours till they absord all the water and get really think and really heavy. Then blast them from 15 yards.

The 38Spl + P expanded but did not penetrate more than half way through. It did some damage though.

The .357 blasted through and put a whole in the back of the books about the size of a soft ball. I did not recover the bullet, but as you turn the pages you can see the damage just getting worse (or better if you prefer).

This was out of a snub SP101. .357 wins hands down.
By the way. I found that grip has a lot to do with percieved recoil. Maybe you can just try a few adjustements and see what happens.

I did this again weeks later with a 9mm.
The 9mm - cut right through with a small channel. I couldn't find the bullet.