38 spcl chrony results with +P Longshot data

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I was out at the range yesterday logging some data for my favorite 38 spcl. +P Longshot loads, and I thought it might interest those who seek a good +P load for such.

Winchester brass trimmed too spec. (Lee case length gauge)

Primer - CCI-500

Bullet - 110 gr. XTP with a heavy roll crimp​

Powder - Longshot 7.6 grs.

Firearm - Taurus 608 - 4" compensated barrel with expansion chamber

Average velocity of 24 rounds fired 1322 fps

Accuracy was excellent at 15 yds.. I was also able to consistently punch a 6" paper plate at 25 yds..

125 gr. XTP with same brass, primer, firearm, and powder as above

Longshot - 7.0 grs.

Average velocity of 24 rounds fired was 1238 fps

All charges were weighed on an RCBS 5-10

I didn't calculate the SD and ES numbers, I don't usually compile those numbers for handgun loads, sorry.

My over all opinion is that Longshot is very clean burning when used in a full pressure (+P) application, but performs poorly at lower table, often erratic velocities, and heavy carbon residue.

There was absolutely no indication of excessive pressure, all the brass nearly fell out of the chambers by gravity alone, and only needed a slight nudge from the extractor rod. Primer flow was very minimal, no cratering present at all.

IMHO, these loads would provide for a quality SD load, very comfortable to shoot even from my non compensated 2-1/2" K frame M66's.

As soon as I return from my couse deer hunt I'm going to perform some penetration data with these loads. I'll be adding 140 gr. XTP's, and 158 gr. (Gold Dots) to the list of chrony and penetration testing in the near future.

GS
 
There was absolutely no indication of excessive pressure, all the brass nearly fell out of the chambers by gravity alone, and only needed a slight nudge from the extractor rod. Primer flow was very minimal, no cratering present at all.
Click to expand...
Primers and ejection are a poor way to judge excessive pressure in low pressure rounds. Std small pistol primers won't show anything at 25K psi which would be an over pressure 38 when they're designed to withstand 36k + psi of 357/9mm 40 and such.
 
Thanks for the data, I am very interested in what you come up with using the 140gr XTP.

Like others here I have used AA#5 and HS-6 to try and duplicate the Spear 135gr Short Barrel load. AA#5 does seem to do it but I get a lot of particulate residue all over. I can work around it but would be interested to see if Longshot would be another option. I like it in .40 S&W but that is of course a much higher pressure round and I never considered using in .38 special. I would think it would work even better with heavier bullets.
 
Ya, that Taurus does run a bit faster than other barrels I've tested with.

As for judging pressures, extraction is a good and as well common baseline method of evaluating high pressures. Sticky or difficult extraction is a good indication that pressures are getting up there. If fired cartridges are nearly falling out of the cylinder with little more than a touch of the rod, it's a good indication that pressures are not approaching red line or excessive. And as far as primer flow and cratering is concerned, one must know there components, not just primers, but all components. Concerning this, I have nearly 30 yrs. experience of working with one brand, that being CCI, so I know what I'm looking for, and it hasn't failed me thus far. Different primers flow differently, some are softer / harder. Bottom line is, as always, a proper work up is always the key to avoiding issues.

I use HS-6 also, but Longshot has been a long time favorite of mine for this load, and also 9mm and .40 cal. just love this powder. Very clean when worked up, and clearly easier to manage pressures with during development, less spikey than HS-6 IMO, though I do like HS-6 also.

GS
 
Thanks for the range report and data. I will have to load some up and try them in my air-weight 642/442. I had shoulder surgery so I have been carrying just a small +P revolver, Don't want to have to mess with racking slides and magazines right now. Keep it simple.;)

Your chronograph does not do the math??
 
primers and ejection are an excellent way to judge pressure IF you use the same weapon and the same primer when you do the comparison (same case manufacturer helps, too). helps if you also have a chrony to run the loads through to aid in the comparison.

murf
 
Rue3, no, I have a very basic chrony, one of the $100 models. I have to break out the calculator to get my numbers. But the velocities I get from it correlate with friends who have high end models, so I feel confident with the results it delivers.

Murf, right you are, we must know and be familiar with the components and firearms to rely on pressure evaluations. I'm glad you mentioned brass also, cause it is plain to see that different head stamps run higher/lower in this respect. And due to this, the chrony results I used were with one head stamp, which was Winchester.

As far as development is concerned, this is something I feel very strongly about in regard to reloading. A lot of folks simply jump into this hobby with a broad and generalized perception of data and development procedures, often getting them in trouble. Brass alone can, and does produce very broad variations, pressures and velocities.

With high powered rifle, I only develop loads to be used with a specific head stamp, specific rifle, and sorted according to weight as well.

And just because I have favorable results with my components and firearms, doesn't mean that load will be safe for someone else who is using different primers, firearms, or components of any type.

GS
 
Those are very respectable numbers. Longshot is one of my favorites too, I use for high end .40 S&W, .45 Super and it even does good in the .45 Colt for a good mid-high range load that will throw a 250gr Gold Dot to 1250 fps from my 4 5/8" Blackhawk with very tight ES and SD numbers.
 
Longshot is loud :D, does not work well when loaded light :uhoh:, but it sure seems to work well if and when you decide to stomp on it in the right size case.
Got some pretty good #s in 9mm and .45 APC when I was trying. :cool:
(I normally load on the light or medium side but got couple lbs of Longshot because it was all that was available and it did not like being loaded light so I cranked it up a bit)

PS, I would have thought Longshot was to slow for 45 APC but Hodgdon list loads so I gave it a try since it was all I had at the time.
 
gamestalker said:
Ya, that Taurus does run a bit faster than other barrels I've tested with.



As for judging pressures, extraction is a good and as well common baseline method of evaluating high pressures. Sticky or difficult extraction is a good indication that pressures are getting up there. If fired cartridges are nearly falling out of the cylinder with little more than a touch of the rod, it's a good indication that pressures are not approaching red line or excessive. And as far as primer flow and cratering is concerned, one must know there components, not just primers, but all components. Concerning this, I have nearly 30 yrs. experience of working with one brand, that being CCI, so I know what I'm looking for, and it hasn't failed me thus far. Different primers flow differently, some are softer / harder. Bottom line is, as always, a proper work up is always the key to avoiding issues.



I use HS-6 also, but Longshot has been a long time favorite of mine for this load, and also 9mm and .40 cal. just love this powder. Very clean when worked up, and clearly easier to manage pressures with during development, less spikey than HS-6 IMO, though I do like HS-6 also.



GS
Click to expand...





I have to disagree. If 357 mag pressures aren't causing sticky extraction how can you possibly guess safe 38 special pressures based upon it?

It's not a reliable method.
 
I've long wondered also about a high pressure cartridge v.s. a low pressure cartridge as to utilizing extraction resistance as a means of evaluating pressures. But I think it has something to do with the internal ballistics of two different cartridges, but I'm no expert so... I have worked up both 38 spcl and ..357 in which both would display sticky extraction, even though I know the 38 spcl loads were no where near the pressures of the .357 mag., yet the evidence certainly seemed to indicate such, and chrony results as well seemed to follow suit.

Maybe one of the ballistic guru's will come along and clarify this phenomena for us.

GS
 
RELAX GUYS !!!
His loads are Hod. published data. Velocities are within sd of what Hod. gives.
I've shot those loads from 3" S&W 336TI and they are "ok".
 
Out of curiosity Goose, I'm guessing velocities probably aren't all that different from your 336TI compared to what I get from my 4" 608? Maybe high 1200's fps or so?

And yes guys, this H data has a long history, and in all my firearms as well, it's actually not the big nasty beast it's being made out to sound like. I won't specify, but I can tell ya I've done full work ups with Longshot, and the published data is well below red line in any of my firearms. Longshot has a big bark, this can often conveys a red flag for those who aren't very familiar with it.

GS
 
Some of the early posters were questioning absence of pressure signs as if they didn't know he was using Hod. listed max loads.

I did chrono the 336. Speeds were a little disappointing. Velocities were about 100fps lower than advertised, but not suprised. Still, excellent speeds. Fastest I've ever seen from even +P .38's.
IRRC; 110's ran 1,130fps
125's ran 1,050fps
A little faster than PowerPistol.
I didn't buy but a 1lb can of PowerPistol and just loaded 6 of each w/LongShot just for comparision.
LS was about 50fps faster than PP.
 
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