38 special, 25g. xtp's too easy to seat?

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JD Fla1

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I'm loading up a new batch for the first time for my revolver.
using Hornady's 125g. .357 dia. xtp's
- after sizing, and giving a tiny flair to start bullet,
setting up the die normally, - I can manually screw down the bullet seater adjusting head on top, and it will push the bullet down inside the case.
Is this normal for this bullet ? Not much resistance there.
My limited experience shows this is not the case with most all my other loads of various calibers.
I do need to apply a decent crimp to these, to avoid set back.
I did try another f.l. resizer also, to see if one was sizing a bit tighter, to no avail.
- using a Lee deluxe pistol set.- no lube used at any time.
 
That's not enough neck tension for sure. Either the sizer(s) too big, or the expander is too big, or some of both.

Seat a bullet in a sized case with no expansion. If you have good neck tension, it's an expander/expansion issue.
 
I think the above have it correct. However, I have had odd brass that was not to spec and would swallow a bullet (Herter's was my issue) while the rest of the brass from other makers run through the press was fine. I still am not sure why to be honest as the expander didn't change unless it was tired/brittle and didn't contract back a hair after expanding.

Need tension or the bullet will jump, with a crimp or not, I just went through this and it was not a good time.
 
Measure your bullet’s diameter, preferably with a mic, first and make sure they’re .357.
JD Fla1 said:
after sizing, and giving a tiny flair to start bullet,
setting up the die normally, - I can manually screw down the bullet seater adjusting head on top, and it will push the bullet down inside the case.
Click to expand...
Break this up into two steps, and attempt to seat the bullet without flare or bell first. It’s a jacketed bullet so you won’t shave it. This will tell you if the sizing step or the flare step is the issue. Good luck.
 
"Googling," it doesn't appear HNDY makes .355/125gr/XTP.
... that said...

JD: Since you're using jacketed, have you tried seating simply as-sized?
(i.e., no expander)


.
 
I measured the bullet diameter.
.357"
Maybe I got the grain wrong, but they were xtp's for 38 cal.

I'll recheck again tonight, and measure all again.
I'll also try to seat without expander.
I measured the expander on the Lee.
It was. 355 and maybe add a 5 to the end of that
 
Either you are flaring too much, your sizing die is not sizing correctly, or you do not have the die adjusted correctly. What brand of brass? Do you have another brand of brass to try?
 
Assorted range brass,
also, a mentioned above , I tried a second sizing die. adjusted just lightly off the shell plate
Barest of flaring, I know I was having a problem, so I kept on reducing the flare to barely letting the bullet in.
It could still have something to do with the flare die, it was that Lee, powder through expander, that came in the kit.
I'll try some different brass also.
 
FWIW: any tine there is a fit issue, measure. You've alerady measured the bullet OD (124 gr XTPs . I've got two boxed of them) so if you have the correct tools you could measuremthe case mouth ID. But try bullet fit after each step, after cleaning, after sizing, after flaring. If you're careful, jacketed bullets can be seated with just a light chamfer on the case mouth.This will help isolate when the case becomes too big.

I started using 38 Special Lee dies and flaring with the powder through die in 1971. Using range brass and jacketed and cast bullets and following the Lee instructons had no problems. Double check your methods as I doubt if the dies are "bad"...
 
I had this same issue but with .45 and from my mixed brass. I found it to be a brass issue. Some were very loose, I could push the bullet down with my finger but on other cases the fit was tight.

This is why before the shortage I bought new brass and started there. But this shortage has forced me to pick up range stuff.

Oh, btw, I just remembered the brass make, the few loose cases where TZZ, I also was loading hornady and had no problem.
 
Cull your R.P. head stamps, and you should be good to go. With the thinner case walls the sizer doesn't yield as small an inner diameter.
 
I had this EXACT same issue with a lee 4 die .357/38 set and hornady 125 grain XTP bullets.

While I didn’t spent a crazy amount of time attempting to remedy the situation, I found that I had to ditch the .357/38 flare die and use a Lee universal expanding die to allow the bullet to start seating in the brass and maintain adequate neck tension.

The brass that I had already flared with the .357/38 die was just too loose to properly hold a bullet. Even after I resized those pieces of brass, they were still bad. I don’t understand how that’s possible but it’s what happened.

I suspect my 357/38 flaring die is out of spec as I measured the bullets and they were .357 but I’m new to reloading and still learning every day.

Good luck.
 
Tempus Tom said:
I had this EXACT same issue with a lee 4 die .357/38 set and hornady 125 grain XTP bullets.

While I didn’t spent a crazy amount of time attempting to remedy the situation, I found that I had to ditch the .357/38 flare die and use a Lee universal expanding die to allow the bullet to start seating in the brass and maintain adequate neck tension.

The brass that I had already flared with the .357/38 die was just too loose to properly hold a bullet. Even after I resized those pieces of brass, they were still bad. I don’t understand how that’s possible but it’s what happened.

I suspect my 357/38 flaring die is out of spec as I measured the bullets and they were .357 but I’m new to reloading and still learning every day.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
You need to use calipers to measure case wall thickness among whatever head stamps you are using. The outer diameter of the case after sizing will be right but maybe not the inner diameter. Case wall thickness is the variable, given your standard size bullets.
 
I did not think about using cam over, I can though with the T7. Maybe I should give it a whirl, not sure though if it's going to help.

The M.A. TNT die I have can take it, and I thought the Lee carbide die was not supposed to be allowed to do that.

I did back out the flare die to a point where there really isn't a bell on the mouth, I had to carefully set bullet on top of the case and guide it up into the seating die.
This DID, seem to do the trick.. I can't bench press the bullet back in now, and that is without applying any crimp. The expander portion of the flare die must be the problem, backing it out to just before the bell, is keeping the expander portion from dropping in to deep.

I have a Lee universal expander, Thanks for that tip, I'll give that a go. I would like some sort of bell on the mouth, as I think I may crush a case or two without it.
 
JD Fla1 said:
- using a Lee deluxe pistol set.- no lube used at any time.
Click to expand...
Demi-human said:
Why are you not running it to touch the shell plate with cam over? (Unless, of course, the press you’re using doesn’t cam.:))
Click to expand...
I don't own a Lee deluxe pistol die set, but what the OP said about not using lube made me think his sizer die is probably carbide. If that's the case, and his carbide sizer die is like my (RCBS and Pacific and Lyman) carbide sizer dies, the instructions are to not adjust it down until it's touching the shell holder with "cam over" - the carbide ring in the sizer die is very brittle, and it can break if a reloader puts that kind of pressure on it.
I've never seen one, but from what I understand RCBS (and maybe some other companies) are building carbide sizer dies now with the carbide rings recessed just a little. And I think a reloader is suppose to adjust those types of carbide sizer dies the conventional way - touching the shell plate with "cam over.":)
 
JD Fla1 said:
I did not think about using cam over, I can though with the T7. Maybe I should give it a whirl, not sure though if it's going to help.
Click to expand...
You got in before me, JD Fla 1. Don't do that without reading the instructions that came with your dies first. As I said in my above post, if you're talking about a carbide sizer die, you can break the carbide ring in it (thus ruining an expensive die) if you adjust it down to the point of "cam over" with your press.:oops:
But don't take my word for it - read the instructions. I'm only telling you what the instructions that came with my carbide pistol die sets say. The instructions that came with your die set might be different.;)
 
If your expander is .355" and your bullets .357" you should have a tight fit ... check your "flaring" step ... are you expanding the case larger when you flare ?
Try inserting a bullet ...no flare or just the slightest hint of a flare ...
Be careful when Flaring ...if you are expanding the .355" neck ... you will have no tension to hold the bullet in place .
Gary
 
Yes, I know that is the rule with carbide dies. Do not tighten down to the shell plate. I do use a skinny piece of cardboard from a light weight box I cut up, and place it on top of the shell holder and run the ram up and tighten down the die. This also is supposed to help in squaring up a die, as I have read.

The Mighty Armory sizing die I have can use cam over. I don't know if that bit of cam over will help shrink up the case to make a difference, but I will check it out.

The other tips here, are noted and certainly appreciated, such cull the thinner walled cases, such as R.P. cases (Remingtons ? ) and TZZ, which I haven't seen one of yet. (any others)?
I do feel differences in tightness during expanding/flaring between different head stamps. It is apparent. and in the dies I have, they seem to want expand a bit bigger than what is need for this bullet.
With the 38, I can see why the lead cast bullet crowd has a pretty huge following.


I had to sort my 9's out to work out a problem with some .356 bullets I was using, and apparently, that's what you get with assorted range brass. An additional step or 2 are sometimes needed.
Now, back out to my hot shop and get through this thing.
oh, and it seems new 38 cases are pretty scarce these days. Been trying to score some Starlines for a decent price for while now.
 
JD Fla1 said:
Yes, I know that is the rule with carbide dies. Do not tighten down to the shell plate. I do use a skinny piece of cardboard from a light weight box I cut up, and place it on top of the shell holder and run the ram up and tighten down the die. This also is supposed to help in squaring up a die, as I have read.

The Mighty Armory sizing die I have can use cam over. I don't know if that bit of cam over will help shrink up the case to make a difference, but I will check it out.

The other tips here, are noted and certainly appreciated, such cull the thinner walled cases, such as R.P. cases (Remingtons ? ) and TZZ, which I haven't seen one of yet. (any others)?
I do feel differences in tightness during expanding/flaring between different head stamps. It is apparent. and in the dies I have, they seem to want expand a bit bigger than what is need for this bullet.
With the 38, I can see why the lead cast bullet crowd has a pretty huge following.


I had to sort my 9's out to work out a problem with some .356 bullets I was using, and apparently, that's what you get with assorted range brass. An additional step or 2 are sometimes needed.
Now, back out to my hot shop and get through this thing.
oh, and it seems new 38 cases are pretty scarce these days. Been trying to score some Starlines for a decent price for while now.
Click to expand...
First TZZ are Israeli military cases, fyi. Second I just checked yesterday for 38 cases and Starline does have some, they're listed as 38+P cases but are the exact same as 38 spl, just mark +P. $93 for 500.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/38-specialplusp-brass
 
Go figure, I was at Star line a couple days ago, and they were out for both types.
Other suppliers carry them for around 5 to 6 cents cheaper, and they were out.
 
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