38 special and Titegroup

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Crazy Horse

Crazy Horse

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I've taken a liking to Titegroup and using it for revolver ammunition. I was looking through the Speer reloading manual and came upon 38 special using LSWC (ACME 158 grain coated SWC) bullets. It calls for a max load of 3.3 using Titegroup. I never load at max, but since I was going to shoot these loads using a Taurus 82 rated at +p and a Taurus 65, I figured going max for a 38 special load would not be an issue. I loaded 100 rounds without issue.

The next day, I looked up a load for the bullet using the Hogdon site. They have different loads data with a starting load of 3.2 to a max of 3.8 grains. I decided to load 50 at 3.5 grains.

Went to the range, and shot ~30 rounds in each firearm. the Taurus 82 handled the loads without issue and I had a tighter shot group over the Taurus 65. 3.3 gave me a better shot group, but I suspect that was due to the person firing the revolver (me). I'm still working on the fixed sights for the Taurus 65 so more filing on the rear sight will be done.

I looked for +p information and could only find data for xtp bullets on the hogdon site which calls for 4.3 grains of titegroup.

I could use 3.8 which is the max for 38 special non +p.

Has anyone seen load information on using SWC on a 38 special for +p loads? I'm looking to see how those would feel on the Taurus 82.

TIA
 
Probably not much help but my current woods load is 4.3 gr of Titegroup under a 158 gr XTP. I get 860fps from my 4-inch model 10.
 
I load swc bullets at 3.8; coated, plated, lead; all shoot well in my 4" 38 and 357
 
I've pushed 357 magnum to around 1200 using coated lead and 2400 with no issues and using published data (Lyman). I just haven't found any published 38+p loads for Lead. The fastest/heaviest powder load I've seen for 158 gr SWC is 3.8, in the 920 fps estimated range for regular 38 special.

Curious as to why there is no +p load data for Titegroup and 158 gr SWC info.

If not, I'll go with what George P stated and use 3.8 grains of titegroup. On the plus side, it saves powder. ;-)
 
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Interesting, I currently use Bullseye in my 38spl now, but when I was using Titegroup I was using 3.5gr for a Speer 158gr LSWCHP. My Speer manual doesn't show Titegroup for 158 LSWC. My Lyman shows max load of 3.3 for a 158gr lead (linotype). You already looked up the Hogdon site. I don't like heavy loads and would have noticed if 3.5gr exceeded limits.
 
If you look at the 357 data for cast LSWC, Hodgdon does show data that would be within 38 Special +P pressures. You just have to account for the slightly longer case by decreasing the load slightly or just not using the maximum load. The pressures they show are 19,300 CUP through 24,900 CUP. 38+P limit is 22,200 CUP. So that start load which would be 19,300 CUP in a 357 case would certainly be under 22,200 CUP in a 38 case.
 
labnoti said:
If you look at the 357 data for cast LSWC, Hodgdon does show data that would be within 38 Special +P pressures. You just have to account for the slightly longer case by decreasing the load slightly or just not using the maximum load. The pressures they show are 19,300 CUP through 24,900 CUP. 38+P limit is 22,200 CUP. So that start load which would be 19,300 CUP in a 357 case would certainly be under 22,200 CUP in a 38 case.
Click to expand...

SAAMI MAP for 38 Special +P is 20,000 CUP per the most recent publication.
 
Jim Watson said:
Probably because it is such a fast burning powder that the 17% increase in pressure to +P would be lost in the noise of charge weight variations.
Click to expand...
I would agree, but Bullseye everywhere I've looked it's indicated that Bullseye is a faster burning powder over TG. However there is 38 spl +p load data for Bullseye and 158 gr LSWC.
The site shows the following for 38 special +p loads using Bullseye: COAL 1.44 Primer 6 CCI 500 Powder Bullseye Load 3.9 FPS 874. However, It's still slower than the 38 spl recipe for 38 special and LSWC at 3.8 grains with an FPS of 920. Probably because the PSI is close to or at max for +p loads.

I was just looking to see if 38 spl efficiently push a 158 gr bullet to ~1000 fps. But once you're there -thinking about it and looking at 357 data- your in 357 magnum territory. +P could be though of a stop gap until 357 came out. Once that occurred I'm guessing most manufacturers though what's the point of testing for +p loads. If an owner wants that type of performance, they will get a 357 magnum.

THX
 
Crazy Horse said:
I've pushed 357 magnum to around 1200 using coated lead and 2400 with no issues and using published data (Lyman). I just haven't found any published 38+p loads for Lead. The fastest/heaviest powder load I've seen for 158 gr SWC is 3.8, in the 920 fps estimated range for regular 38 special.

Curious as to why there is no +p load data for Titegroup and 158 gr SWC info.

If not, I'll go with what George P stated and use 3.8 grains of titegroup. On the plus side, it saves powder. ;-)
Click to expand...
These are the chrono'd fps from a 4" S&W 66 for 3.8 T.G. taken the other day
Chrono was about 5' away
Bayou 158coated LSWC: 801, 842, 821, 813, 824
RMR 158 PLHP: 749, 741, 693, 699, 730
MBS 158LSWC: 813, 854, 825, 848, 802
Xtreme 158PLSWC: 758, 799, 761, 765, 777

Don't know where the 900+fps is coming from unless they are using a 8" barrel or similar
Ammo was loaded on a Hornady LnL

The Bayous gave the best accuracy
 
George P said:
These are the chrono'd fps from a 4" S&W 66 for 3.8 T.G. taken the other day
Chrono was about 5' away
Bayou 158coated LSWC: 801, 842, 821, 813, 824
RMR 158 PLHP: 749, 741, 693, 699, 730
MBS 158LSWC: 813, 854, 825, 848, 802
Xtreme 158PLSWC: 758, 799, 761, 765, 777

Don't know where the 900+fps is coming from unless they are using a 8" barrel or similar
Ammo was loaded on a Hornady LnL

The Bayous gave the best accuracy
Click to expand...

George P,
They used the following to test as indicated in the site:
Case: Winchester
Twist: 1:18.75"
Primer: Winchester SP, Small Pistol
Barrel Length: 7.7"
Trim Length: 1.145"

So that's close to an 8 inch barrel (7.7). I'm using a 4 inch barrel same as you, so I would expect to be in the fps ranges you listed. I can't get myself to get a revolver with that long a barrel.

CH
 
Crazy Horse said:
I looked for +p information and could only find data for xtp bullets on the hogdon site which calls for 4.3 grains of titegroup.
Click to expand...
I have a love hate relationship with Titegroup. In general it’s a very nice powder with a lot of nice characteristics, but, at the top end of the load data it can get out of control really quickly. If I were to pursue a +P load, I’d choose a slower more well behaved powder. I do use it for regular .38 loads and have found it to produce some of the most precise groups I have every seen. Once bench rest test at 5 yards 6 shots yielded about a .40” hole - that usually never happens for me, guess I got lucky that day. Good luck!
 
lordpaxman said:
I have a love hate relationship with Titegroup. In general it’s a very nice powder with a lot of nice characteristics, but, at the top end of the load data it can get out of control really quickly. If I were to pursue a +P load, I’d choose a slower more well behaved powder. I do use it for regular .38 loads and have found it to produce some of the most precise groups I have every seen. Once bench rest test at 5 yards 6 shots yielded about a .40” hole - that usually never happens for me, guess I got lucky that day. Good luck!
Click to expand...
I've been very pleased with TG and revolver loads. I've used CFE and Bullseye, but TG burned cleanest and felt consistent each shot. I was working with WST and have settled on loads for 45acp and 9mm for that powder. I'm going to try and stay with TG for my revolver loads, with the exception of 2400 for Magnum loads. It pushes the bullet at magnum speeds, it's loud, it a lightshow, and works well, but 2400 requires alot of powder, so you don't get near as many loads per pound over other powders. I'm happy with TG on revolvers.
 
I like Titegroup myself but like any other fast burning powder its not the best for max loads. Try some some of the medium range powders for +P loads. I like AA#5, and Winchester 231. Unique will also work. There are so many new powders out now that the load manuals can't include them all. And remember if you are looking at lead bullet data it is kept down to prevent leading in barrels not so much because of pressure. You can find a +P load for a jacketed bullet and use that to load lead bullets. But watch for leading. But never use a hot load for lead bullets to load jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets have more barrel drag and a hot lead load that is safe may be way too much for a jacketed bullet.
 
I have a 8 lb jug of Tightgroup that I’ve used less than a 1/4 lb. Just can’t seem to find the love for it. I really noticed how much hotter it makes my revolvers compared to Bullseye. I will say that it burns cleaner and less soot than Bullseye but a wipe with a rag damp with Ballistol removes any soot.
Bought the Tightgroup at the end of last powder shortage and will probably have it for the next one.
For any plus P loading HS6 has that covered for 38 special.
 
Reeferman said:
I have a 8 lb jug of Tightgroup that I’ve used less than a 1/4 lb. Just can’t seem to find the love for it. I really noticed how much hotter it makes my revolvers compared to Bullseye. I will say that it burns cleaner and less soot than Bullseye but a wipe with a rag damp with Ballistol removes any soot.
Bought the Tightgroup at the end of last powder shortage and will probably have it for the next one.
For any plus P loading HS6 has that covered for 38 special.
Click to expand...
Well, if you're near north FL/South GA, I'll buy it from ya!
 
A maximum load of HP-38 for .357 Magnum with XTP produces 1068 fps in a 5" revolver barrel in my own testing. With a 3" barrel, it produed 993 fps. Hodgdon rates this at 40,000 CUP. According to their data, it produced 1220 fps out of a 10" bbl. Bear in mind that their 10" and 7.7" test barrels do not have a revolver cylinder gap. My conclusion is that Titegroup will not produce anywhere near 1000 fps at .38+P pressures in a short-barreled revolver.
 
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