.38 special in 9mm

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JamieC

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I recently decided to slug one of my 9mm guns as I found out that it really doesn't like the 124g LRN Bayou Bullets I've got a bunch of. The barrel is a five groove, kinda tough to measure. I used a .38 special, 105gr bullet and drove it through the barrel. The closest I could measure is a hair under .357". Wondering if .358" .38 special bullets would work? I have some laying around, 105gr SWC also from Bayou Bullets. I thinking about loading up some of these in 9mm. I use the FCD die, would that size the .358" back down to .356"? I guess I shouldn't use the FCD, instead crimp with the seating die?
 
I've used .357 cast bullets for a long time in either my 38Spl, 9mm and 38Super without any problems. I've used the lee die sets including the FCD without any problems in 9mm and 38Super. Not sure what an extra .001 might cause, but there's no harm in trying.
 
I've slugged 9x19 barrels that measured .358", and some that measured .356". The truth of the matter is they're all over the map when it comes to bore size.

It won't hurt a thing to shoot your .38 cast bullets through your 9x19. In fact, they will probably improve the accuracy of that particular handgun. I'm not a big fan of the Lee FCD, even though I own a couple. As long as the loaded rounds chamber properly, there's no good reason to be sizing the case and bullet down......

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Press fit. Never put one back in, a new die isn't that expensive. Open the top, use a punch, chisel, or hardened rod, tap it out.
 
+1: Lee makes a taper crimp die as good as anyone else's. Absolutely as good as any other taper crimp die.
The only thing I use a Lee FCD for is to Bulge Bust.
However, for roll crimping, the FCD is almost as good as the Redding Profile Crimp Die, so it is NOT a bad crimp die, just NOT a good die for use with all cast lead bullets.
I have had my 0.357" cast bullets get swaged down to 0.355-0.356" after I went to the range and found them to be shooting all over the place and leading my barrel (for the first time in years). Small changes can make big differences.
When I started loading back around 1975, it was just 44 Rem Mag and .45 Auto and found that my groups were a bit smaller when I separated seating from crimping, so I always have kept the operations separate.
For 9x19, I usually use 0.357-0.358" cast lead bullets, even with 0.355" groove barrels. I also use 0.356-0.357" jacketed bullets. Start at start load and work up, but I have never seen any pressure signs.
 
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I agree. :)
so it is NOT a bad crimp die, just NOT a good die for use with all cast lead bullets.
I agree, and have posted such. It crimps fine, I just don't care for the "post sizing" part.

I too have shot .38 bullets in 9MM before testing to see how it would work.
 
I think it worth your time to run up a dummy round and see if the bullet was effected. In a straight wall case it's an absolute factor but 9mm has a slight taper and the FCD carbide ring may not put the squeeze on the bullet like it would on a straight wall case.
 
You guys do know the 9mm is a tapered case?
The Lee 9mm FCD only sizes the base of the case. It doesn't affect the neck OR size down a bullet in the neck. It's not quite the same as a FCD for a straight wall case like .38spl, .357mag, .44mag, .45acp, ect.

I use a Lee FCD in my 5-hole Loadmaster to crimp 9mm. Works fantastic.
I DO use a Lee taper crimp for .38spl.
Re: 105gr LSWC, I use the 105gr Lee LSWC sized to .357" in my 9mm loads. My 3 Performance Center S&W's have .357" bores and shoot this more accurately.
 
One of my favorite loads for my old P85 was the RCBS 38-150 KT bullet. Used the 147 grain "book" load of Unique. Accurate.
 
A lee factory crimp die from a 4-die set..


A lee bullet seating die from a lee 4-die set.


The directions for the lee 4-die sets.
javascript:void(window.open('/cgi-data/instruct/Pistol4.pdf'))

In the directions lee provides with their 4-die sets (link posted above). You can actually seat and crimp the bullet with nothing more than the bullet seating die. If you look at the picture (posted above) of the lee bullet seating die (picture from lee website) you can see a pinch point in the die where the top of the case mouth and the bullet meet.
Also pictured above is the lee fcd (from lee's website) it has a sizing ring in the bottom and a stepped crimp ring in the top of it.

Something to keep in mind:
Reloading die mfg's make reloading dies to reload jacketed bullets. You have to buy special dies like "cowboy action" dies to use with lead bullets for example. Other mfg's use different names for their dies that are designed for the larger lead bullets. Typical jacketed bullets for the 9mm are .355" in diameter. Die makers use case expanders that will flare the case mouth enough to start a .355" bullet in a 9mm case while still keeping enough neck tension on the bullet aid in holding the bullet in place/preventing bullet setback. A picture of a factory lee 9mm expander plug next to a custom plug I made to reload cast .358" bullets in 9mm cases.


That custom expander has 3 things different about it than the factory lee expander:
The custom plug body is longer than the factory lee expander
The custom plug is larger in diameter than the lfactory lee plug
The custom plug has a small step in it to flare the top of the case.

A lyman m-die expander plug. Both those bullets are 124gr 9mm bullets. As you can see different bullet shape designs have different seating depths.


Typically, lead/cast bullets are longer than their jacketed counterparts of the same weight. Expanding the case deeper helps protect the base of the longer bullets.
What happens when you use the lee factory 4-die set to load the oversized .358" bullets that are longer bodied than their jacketed counterparts. Sizing the brass isn't affected 1 way or the other. But most lee 9mm dies will size the 9mm brass to around .374" at the case mouth. When you expand the cases with the factory expander die the expander plug will not go deep enough. Nor does it expand the case wide enough & the end result is a .358" lead bullet that has it's base and body swaged down when it is seated in the under expanded 9mm case. The secondary spin off that the 9mm case base will sometimes start to collapse from the extreme pressure of the over sized bullet being jammed into the case as it's being seated. The other thing that happens is anything under pressure will go to the least point of resistance. The end result is some of the bullets will be seated crooked. That step in the m-dies & custom die on the expander plug makes a shelf at the top of the case that aids in the bullet sitting straight and starting straight as it's being seated. So when you run a reload in in your lee fcd you will feel resistance if the case started to buckle when the bullet is being seated. Or the bullet is crooked and 3/1000th's more bullet ='s a lot less margin for the bullet to be straight.

Myself, I use a .358" bullet in all of my firearms chambered in 9mm. I use a custom expander (a lot of reloaders use a lee 38s&w expander) and I seat the bullet in 1 step and use a taper crimp die (lee or custom) to crimp the bullets.I found that if I use the correct expander for the diameter/length bullets I'm reloading, there's no need for the lee fcd. I don't shoot a lot of 9mm's anymore, several 1000 a year. I can't remember the last time I've had a jamb or ftf in any 9mm.

Anyway, there's a lot going on with using/reloading over sized 9mm bullets long before you even get to the fcd/taper crimp only/seat & crimp in separate stages decisions. Got to seat those bullets correctly with the correct tool for the job.
Casting and coating bullets for the 9mm. Used 9bhn/10bhn range scrap and cast bullets for the 9mm. Coated them with a dry powder coat (polyester), sized them to .358" and loaded them using a custom expander and a lee taper crimp die.
The load is 5.0gr ow wst pushing a home cast/coated bullet. That's a 9bhn/10bhn bullet with a 25,000+psi load doing 1100fps+ from a 5" bbl'd nm 1911. A 10-shot group @50ft doing test loads, those are 1" squares.


Good luck with your 105gr .358" bullets. I know a lot of people over on the cast boolits website use that same bullet in their 9mm's along with their 38spl's & 357's. Must be doing something right, there's a pretty good following with that bullet, economical & accurate.
 
I tossed the short expander that came with my 9MM set long ago and replaced it with a Redding which is a knock off of that Lyman M Die. It has the step and is longer like the M Die and your custom expander. I actually ended up replacing everything in the set except the seater. I still use the Hornady seater (With a micrometer top now), but a Lee sizer, Redding expander, and C&H taper crimp die.
 
Could I use the expander from my 38 special die set? Is that the one forrest r mentions, "lee 38s&w expander''?
 
Make note that the diagrams are for straight cases, not the tapered 9mm Parabellem. Base of 9mmP is 0.391" and case mouth outside 0.381" (Lee #2; page 530. The Lee 9mmP FCD doesn't touch a case mouth with a seated bullet, even with a .358" bullet seated...

You're ok if you're using late US mfg brass, but if using 20+ yr old brass, a .355" bullet seated may not have adequate neck tension to retain the bullet.
Hence Lee's short expander...
I simply use a .38spl expander if I need to. I also custom ordered a .003" set of o/s 9mm dies to avoid the "coke bottle" syndrome. (Over sized case, crooked seated bullet).
More than one way to "skin a cat".
 
My old stock Lee sizer has a tapered carbide insert and it does not give the coke bottle look. My Redding sizer has a straight insert and it does give the CB affect. I use the Lee.
 
Never put one back in, a new die isn't that expensive.
With 9mm, you would never have to. At least 40 and 45 FCD can be used to bulge bust cases. 9mm FCD is, IMO, worthless. Do it. Knock out that ring! If you need FCD for 9mm, you probably really want ammo gauge or chamber check, and then to figure out the actual problem.
 
I simply use a .38spl expander if I need to. I also custom ordered a .003" set of o/s 9mm dies to avoid the "coke bottle" syndrome. (Over sized case, crooked seated bullet).
More than one way to "skin a cat".
Yep. +1 to this and to Forrest R's post.

Forget oversize 9mm bore. First thing to chek out if you use cast/plated is case swaging. Your bullets are potentially being ruined by the cases. 9mm cases absolutely destroy base of these softer bullets. Be sure to check your bullets with a puller and calipers if you are having accuracy or fouling issues. Going up in bullet size to compensate for "case swaging" is one way to go. Using harder bullets is often recommended as necessary for 9mm due to "pressure" or "barrel twist." But quite often the actual problem is the 9mm case. Personally, I have custom expanders for all pistol calibers where I shoot softer cast lead. And I shoot very soft bullets in 9mm with no fouling. Rifles, not a problem, because gas check and harder alloys open up the case neck just fine. Pistols, yeah. Esp 9mm! Since you are using cast bullets and considering going up to 38 caliber.... double whammy. Definitely recommend checking for case swaging.

For 9mm I use 356 caliber expander plug, actual diameter of the expander. And it goes all the way to where the base of the bullet will seat. 40SW, I use 401 sized expander plug. 45, I have a 452 sized expander plug. None of this bullet diameter minus 2 mils, for me. My expander is the same diameter as the lead bullet going into the case. (When loading jacketed? I used the same oversize expander, and neck tension is just fine even though plug is bullet diameter PLUS 1 mil. Though this is not really recommended, I say just to show 2 mils under is way way too tight for cast bullets IMO.)

BTW, for 9mm and 45, we are lucky. We can buy expanders made for 38 special and 454. Check NOE for great expander plugs. My 40SW expander is custom.

BTW, when slugging barrel, most important thing to check for is for stricture. If you push the bullet from chamber to muzzle, you want to note if the barrel gets tight early and then opens up towards the muzzle. If this is the case, you have an actual problem for cast bullets. My Glocks shoot cast better than my revolvers... cuz revolvers are press fit into the frame and this often causes a stricture as is the case with both mine. Short of having a stricture, or an overly tight chamber (which won't allow you to get the right size bullet into the gun), cast is easy. If the bullet is big enough, it will work, coated or not. But this includes checking for that danged case swaging, which some people omit.
 
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I finally got around to testing the 105gr 38 special SWCs in my 9mm, they DEFINITELY tightened up my groups. I did get one or two FTF, (failure to feed), kind of a 3 point jam. 5.5gr of Power Pistol, 1.020" OAL, yeah, seemed kinda short to me also but that's what seemed to be needed to pass the plunk test. More testing needed. I also had some 150gr LSWCs, .357", they shot well also. Obviously this one gun needs fatter bullets. I had loaded some 124gr LRN, (all these bullets are from Bayou), they were also .357", some idiot forgot to bring 'em though, I'll have to wait to check those out some other time. The testing I did today would seem to make me think the LRN will work just fine.
 
Or, learn to seat the bullet straight to begin with and you'll never need an FCD.
But you will need the FCD to fix your learning curve mistakes. You would have to be pretty slow not to want to stop having the problem.
 
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