38 Special Loads......

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I just ran a load for .38 Special using SAAMI pressure limits (17,000 psi) through my Quickload program. Here are the numbers. For SAAMI +P loads, the limit is 18,500 psi, according to Quickload.
Lyman's 358311 LRN bullet wt. of 158 grs. & seated for an overall cartridge length of 1.550".
Using a 4" barrel length I got the following data.

The relative burning rate of Universal lies somewhere between Unique and Herco according to the 49th Edition of Lyman's Handloading Handbook. HTH's Rod

4.0 gr of Hodgen Universal = 762 fps with a max chamber pressure of 13,000 psi
4.5 gr of Hodgen Universal = 822 fps with a max chamber pressure of 16,200 psi
4.7 gr of Hodgen Universal = 860 fps with a max chamber pressure of 17,600 psi
4.9 gr of Hodgen Universal = 887 fps with a max chamber pressure of 19,000 psi

This same manual (49th Edition of Lyman's Handloading Handbook) lists the following data for the same bullet & seating depth, using Unique.
A 4" bbl. gave 801 fps with 4.2 grains Unique and 11,400 psi & 905 fps with 4.7 gr & 15,900 psi.

---
The old ammunition catalogs from the 1930s usually show the MV of the .38-44 cartridge as being in the low 1100s from a 5" barrel (158gr. LRN or MC). Run that through Quickload and you will most likely find those original loads were into the magnum range, not just +P.

 

[Monac]

I ask this out of idle curiosity inspired by the reloading page GeoDudeFlorida posted above: Is the lead alloy meant for linotype machines still used by reloaders? I would not have thought that linotype machines were in use anywhere today, but apparently there is at least one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saguache_Crescent . Is the alloy still used for other purposes?

 

[JTHunter]

45 Long - in the manual I'm using for reloading both .38 Special and .357, it lists the Winchester 231 as maxing out at 4.3 grains for .38 Special using 158 gr. Hornady XTP jacketed bullets. This gives you ~779 fps at 15,900 CUP but this is from a 7.7" barrel. However, CFE Pistol will give you ~914 fps and 16,200 PSI (yeah, I don't know why they use different measurements) with 5.0 grains (MAX).
For .38 Sp. +P, the same 158 gr. XTP and CFE will give you ~986 fps and 18,500 PSI using 5.4 grains - also MAX.
Winchester 231 is NOT listed for "+P" loads with the 158 gr. bullets.

 

[forrest r]

Need some help here. Are "Universal Clays" and "Universal" the same powder ? The container I have doesn't have the word "Clays" on it anywhere.
I also see that Hodgdon has a powder just named "Clays" that is recommended for 38 special ????????

Yes, universal and universal clays are the same powder.

Hodgdon put out the clay line of powders:
universal clays
international clays
clays

 

[45 long]

Yes, universal and universal clays are the same powder.

Thanks..........would help if they would only use one name for each powder.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

LRN-how quaint. Unless you have a huge supply of them on hand. In my reloading days-which I will get back to-accuracy was paramount. "Speed's fine but accuracy is final."

 

[Jim Watson]

Colt once "rated" all their .38 Specials, even the Detective Special, for .38-44 HV which is above SAAMI +P. But that was back when Colt was a going concern and you could get them fixed if you beat them up with heavy loads. I don't think people shot as much back then, either.

Smith and Wesson didn't, only the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman for which the ammo was introduced.

 

[45 long]

Get a Lab-Radar chronograph

DR, Can I borrow some money ?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

DR, Can I borrow some money ?

My Shooting Chrony F1 was only $75 new (RIP Chrony! ) and the replacement for it I just bought off GoneBroker was also only $75, LNIB. The light-activated chronographs are plenty accurate for us hand-loaders, IMHO.

 

[DR505]

DR, Can I borrow some money ?

Once I finish saving up for my own Lab-Radar we can chat. Until then...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I ask this out of idle curiosity inspired by the reloading page GeoDudeFlorida posted above: Is the lead alloy meant for linotype machines still used by reloaders? I would not have thought that linotype machines were in use anywhere today, but apparently there is at least one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saguache_Crescent . Is the alloy still used for other purposes?

Interesting question so I looked it up and Rotometals carries Linotype alloy - 5 pounds (4%-Tin, 12%-Antimony, and 84%-Lead) for $22 + S/H - by the ingot or by the bag. It seems bullet casting might be the last refuge for Linotype.

If the 2nd Amendment only protects government troops and federal officers like the social-justice warriors say, then the 1st must only protect government publishing houses and federal libraries.

 

[ThomasT]

That's what my crib sheet/notes for .38 special loading says. I also wrote 3.5 grains of Bullseye on the side of the box of 500 cast lead SWC bullets on the shelf behind me.

As Geodude points out above & Alliant posts on the recipe web site though, it is over max.

I doubt one tenth over the max is going to do your gun any harm. And unless you scale weigh the load you may never even know exactly what you are dropping unless your powder dumper is extremely accurate. And I have loaded well past that 3.4gr load with no harm. Plus the original standar 38 Special load has always been 3.5grs of Bullseye.

Colt once "rated" all their .38 Specials, even the Detective Special, for .38-44 HV which is above SAAMI +P. But that was back when Colt was a going concern and you could get them fixed if you beat them up with heavy loads. I don't think people shot as much back then, either.

Smith and Wesson didn't, only the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman for which the ammo was introduced.

Thats what I was going to post but Jim beat me to it. When the 38/44 load came out Colt stated their guns could safely fire them. And yes they were bottom end 357 loads.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Couple things.
Buddy put me on to Grant Cunningham's full charge wadcutters, plated 148 WCs, loaded flush, over 3.5 Bullseye. As others have noted, that was the old .38 Spl load.
It clocks at 728'sec in a 2" Centennial, and 785'sec in a 3" M60. No pressure signs, and I've been known to shoot them in a Mason-Richards open top with no apparent problem.
My bride bought me a LabRadar last year for Christmas; had an Oehler for 20 years, and shot the skyscreens exactly once; Scorpion carbine, with the offset for the reddot, I got in trouble.
I used the Oehler a lot over the years, but the setup made it an all afternoon job. The good news was that the expensive parts didn't have to be downrange; repairing the skyscreens was pretty cheap.
The LabRadar is easy-peasy, and, as we noted at the range, the only thing better than having a chrono is having a buddy with one.
It has that in common with pickup trucks...
Moon

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Couple things.
Buddy put me on to Grant Cunningham's full charge wadcutters, plated 148 WCs, loaded flush, over 3.5 Bullseye. As others have noted, that was the old .38 Spl load.
It clocks at 728'sec in a 2" Centennial, and 785'sec in a 3" M60. No pressure signs, and I've been known to shoot them in a Mason-Richards open top with no apparent problem.
My bride bought me a LabRadar last year for Christmas; had an Oehler for 20 years, and shot the skyscreens exactly once; Scorpion carbine, with the offset for the reddot, I got in trouble.
I used the Oehler a lot over the years, but the setup made it an all afternoon job. The good news was that the expensive parts didn't have to be downrange; repairing the skyscreens was pretty cheap.
The LabRadar is easy-peasy, and, as we noted at the range, the only thing better than having a chrono is having a buddy with one.
It has that in common with pickup trucks...
Moon

Grant was a regular on the old Lee Enfield Collector’s forum - Mark Bitting’s pages, not the later one run by the Culver’s. He was always an absolute gentleman and extremely helpful to us noobs.

 

[Hal]

I doubt one tenth over the max is going to do your gun any harm. And unless you scale weigh the load you may never even know exactly what you are dropping unless your powder dumper is extremely accurate. And I have loaded well past that 3.4gr load with no harm. Plus the original standar 38 Special load has always been 3.5grs of Bullseye.

Probably so - - but - as a courtesy to others & for the benefit of my conscience, I do like to admit my fault when I am at fault for something.

 

[Palladan44]

Yeah, there is a huge difference in pressures between the standard .38 special and .38/44 or 357 magnum. The .38 was originally a black powder round, and is the reason why the case is so big. If made today, the .38 special would be a rimmed case maybe the size of a 9mm or 380 because with modern smokeless powder, say 4 or 5 grains does the job to create your max .38 special load.

Now, the .38/44 originally used modern smokeless powder like Hercules 2400, and filled the entire case with it. Basically the predecessor to the 357 Magnum. Lots more pressure and ballistic energy, one could argue it creates 2 or even 3 times the power compared to a standard 38.

I believe it isnt even recommended to use +p ammo in the old .38s much less a 38/44 load.
I personally would use the lowest pressure and most accurate load you can work up for your old police positive that are in published .38 special ranges. Using more than that would be a good way to knock the lockwork out of time, or worse.

 

[45 long]

Went to the range today w/son#1. Had my reloads w/4gr Universal & 2 of the original WW 150gr rounds he got with the gun. Both of us agreed that there was no difference. Felt & performed the same.
Might bump it up to 4.2 grains as suggested by Pat Riot to see a difference in accuracy, but I don't think I'd go beyond that.

I personally would use the lowest pressure and most accurate load you can work up for your old police positive

I agree !!

 

[Rodfac]

personally would use the lowest pressure and most accurate load you can work up for your old police positive that are in published .38 special ranges. Using more than that would be a good way to knock the lockwork out of time, or worse.

This is very good advice...gunsmiths that know their way around Colt DA's are few indeed, not to mention the paucity of parts!

But I'll readily admit that 3.5 gr. of Bullseye backing a 148 gr wadcutter seated with 1/8" of lead showing is by far my favorite paper punching/plinking load. We use in all manner of .357's and a J frame M-36 Smith. Superb accuracy. Here's the bullet (Lyman's 35891 at 148 gr.) seated in a .38 Spl case and one in Magnum brass. I crimp in that skinny little groove at the top. And BTW this a 745 fps .38 Spl load in my 4" M19, and with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye in .357 Magnum brass, it clocks 907 fps from a 5" Model 27 Smith.

Best Regards, Rod

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

This is very good advice...gunsmiths that know their way around Colt DA's are few indeed, not to mention the paucity of parts!

But I'll readily admit that 3.5 gr. of Bullseye backing a 148 gr wadcutter seated with 1/8" of lead showing is by far my favorite paper punching/plinking load. We use in all manner of .357's and a J frame M-36 Smith. Superb accuracy. Here's the bullet (Lyman's 35891 at 148 gr.) seated in a .38 Spl case and one in Magnum brass. I crimp in that skinny little groove at the top. And BTW this a 745 fps .38 Spl load in my 4" M19, and with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye in .357 Magnum brass, it clocks 907 fps from a 5" Model 27 Smith.

Best Regards, Rod

View attachment 984241

I use a 145gr. DEWC with 3.7gr of Bullseye to get 850fps from a 4” Official Police. It’s a real door knocker and real accurate out to the 20 yard line. I don’t cast my own tho, I buy them online. 6.5gr of Unique puts them over 1200fps but only in a longer barrel.

 

[45 long]

My bride bought me a LabRadar last year for Christmas;

She have a sister ???