.38 Special +P Defense loads.....

[Eightball]

Yeah, I know, another .38 special defense question.

Out of a Smith and Wesson 638 (1 7/8" barrel, .38+P), which projectile would make better "+P" defense rounds?

158gr. LSWCHP, (Winchester factory loaded, +P)
or
125gr. Hornady XTP over some 231 powder (+P)?

Both are in Ni-plated casings, FWIW.

(Before anyone asks...I'm away from my loadbook, so I don't remember the precise recipe for my 231 loads, but it was definitely +P loadings).

ETA: The reason these are the only two options listed: I'm away from the house for an extended period of time, and these are my only two real options, unless someone here is advocating 148gr. LWC over some Bullseye.

 

[earplug]

Stick to 158 grain

All my fixed sight 38/357 shoot to point of aim with 158 grain bullets.
In the future many bad guys will be using armor. Many LEO/bad guy shootings have had bullets hit the targets arms. This limits penetration of the bullet if it has started to expand.
A heavy slow handgun bullet will normally penetrate better then a fast expanding bullet.
If you need to shoot within inches of aim, the bullet that hits closest would be best.
Cheap practice is better then expensive carry.

 

[Kind of Blued]

My own (neophyte) tests showed much better penetration AND expansion with 158 grainers out of a 1 7/8".

For what it's worth, I used the Remington load. I remember reading that one of the two tended to use softer lead, but don't remember which.

 

[Steve C]

I would select the 158gr LSWCHP for a 2" over the XTP. The XTP bullet has hollow that's a bit shallow and is probably better for magnum loads where the extra velocity will ensure expansion. Hornady lists 800 to 1,600 fps as the velocity range for their 125gr XTP-HP bullet. Out of a 2" barrel you're not going to get much over 800 fps using load data from Hornady, old Winchester data or using Hodgdon HP38 loads and substituting W231.

Probably a better bullet for a hand load would be the 125gr .38 Remington Golden Sabers that you can get as bulk from Midway and other sources. It has a wider and deeper hollow than the same bullet designated for the .357 mag and the factory ammo has a good reputation for expansion. I load these with 6.0grs of Unique for 1,064 fps from my 4" S&W M67 and find them to be very accurate. It would probably take around 5.5grs of W231 to get the same velocity but that's over the recommended maximum load for most manuals. Another + of the GS is they're usually less money than the Hornady bullet.

 

[sidheshooter]

One load is proven, the other is impossible to prove (in court).

For SD, go factory 158.

 

[Old Fuff]

You forgot "none of the above."

I dance to a different drummer. The load chosen depends on the size and/or weight of the revolver, and I pick a load that shoots to the point-of-aim because bullet placement is far more important then bullet design or construction. The next consideration is recoil control, because a second and following shots may need to be made quickly - and accurately.

 

[kludge]

Change the "Winchester" to "Remington" and it gets my vote.

 

[Landric]

The 125 grain JHP/SJHP loads of any variety out of a 2" .38 Special are a maybe yes, maybe no affair when it comes to expansion. The XTP, having a shallow hollowpoint cavity is probably going to be less likely to expand at short barrel .38 Special velocities than most others.

I'd go with the 158 grain LSWCHP from one of the manufactures. My choice is actually the 135 grain Speer Gold Dot +P, but that wasn't listed as an option.

 

[CoRoMo]

HHH

Heavier Hits Harder

 

[The_Shootist]

Buffalo Bore standard pressure 158 gr LSWCHP

 

[KBintheSLC]

I prefer the hefty penetration of the 158 over the marginal penetration/expansion of the 125. Out of a snubbie, penetration is the only thing you can guarantee... expansion on the other hand is all about luck.

 

[sm]

I'm with Fuff

Old Fuff wrote:

You forgot "none of the above."

I dance to a different drummer. The load chosen depends on the size and/or weight of the revolver, and I pick a load that shoots to the point-of-aim because bullet placement is far more important then bullet design or construction. The next consideration is recoil control, because a second and following shots may need to be made quickly - and accurately.

Oh happy day, I just found a box of fifty, standard pressure, 158 gr, LSWC , a mentor reloaded some twenty...twenty five years ago. I really like these loads and know what they will do in various guns, and have put down cows, and other critters with these.

 

[sixgunner455]

I'm with Fuff and Steve. I load my 642 with 125 gr Speer Gold Dots, standard pressure. The shot placement is great, and recoil control is as good as it gets in this caliber with that gun.

If I can't find those, I load 158 gr LSWC at standard pressure.

Those two loads make up the bulk of my shooting in .38 Special, with the weight going tothe LSWC.

 

[peeshooter]

best load

According to Massad Ayoob and the FBI it's the .38 spl +p 158 grain LSWCHP. Ammunition to go has Federals in stock right know. I just got some.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Here's what Chuck Hawks has to say about .38 Special defense loads, FWIW:

Loads for Full-Sized .38 Revolvers With 4" or Longer Barrels: The Numero Uno .38 Special defense load for your 4" barrel revolver is the Cor-Bon .38 Special+P 125 grain JHP. It is a very high-pressure load and should be used only in modern six-shot revolvers. It has less felt recoil and muzzle flip than the #2 choice, which follows. When I carry a 4" .38, I want it loaded with this cartridge.

The second-best choice is the .38 Special +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint (LSWCHP) available from Federal, CCI, Winchester and Remington. Ayoob has found the latter to have the greatest expansion, so I would choose Remington (catalog #R38S12). This unjacketed all-lead round (often called the "FBI load" or "Chicago load") is a proven manstopper when fired from a 4" barrel. Your fixed-sight .38 revolver it will usually shoot to point-of-aim with this load; lighter bullets will normally shoot low (some very low). All fixed-sight .38s are regulated at the factory to shoot accurately with standard velocity 158 grain bullets, as this was the weight of the long-time standard American and Canadian police load.

* Federal makes the FBI load in their Nyclad line covered with a thin Nylon jacket to prevent leading (#P38G). This is now a police only load. The all-lead version is #38G.
* CCI offers the famous FBI load in their economical aluminum-cased Blazer line (#3523). This is a bargain. What I really recommend, however, is that for practice you use the CCI Blazer 158 grain JACKETED hollowpoint (#3526) because it duplicates the ballistics and recoil of the FBI load without fouling your barrel with hard-to-scrub-out lead deposits. These are a bitch to clean (I use 'Flitz' metal polish with good results. It will also remove unsightly "burn rings" from the cylinder face of your stainless-steel revolver).

Note: .38 Special ammunition is loaded to two pressure levels: standard pressure and +P. Standard pressure loads may be used in any .38 Special revolver, but +P loads should be fired extensively only in steel-frame .38 Special revolvers. Firing a few (under fifty) +P loads in your aluminum-framed .38 Special revolver will not destroy it or cause it to explode, but will damage your aluminum-framed revolver if you fire more than a hundred rounds. The main problem with carrying +P .38 Special loads in an aluminum-framed .38 Special revolver is that the kick is nasty and slows repeat shots. Thus I recommend standard pressure ammunition for aluminum-framed .38 Special revolvers, as it is much easier to score fast hits.

Other .38 Special Loads for Your 4" Barrel Revolver:

IMI-Samson also offers a lightweight, very high pressure load, the 110 gr. +P+ JHP. This is said to be a ballistic duplicate of the law-enforcement-only "Treasury" load that T-men used to carry. Who cares? The Cor-Bon 125 gr. +P load is superior. And never use any 147 grain bullet in any caliber. They are cursed.

All major manufacturers catalog light .38 +P hollowpoints, from 95-129 grains. None of these are as successful as the Cor-Bon .38 Special +P 125 grain JHP or 158 grain +P LSWCHP, so why carry them? Light +P loads only make sense in a 2" barrel snub (more on this later). The Federal Hydra-shok and Winchester Silvertip may look cool, but the boring-looking Cor-Bon and FBI loads do the job in a 4" revolver. Stick with them.

PMC makes a bizarre 66 grain tubular hollow bullet load. Some enthusiastic gun-shop salesman may try to sell it to you. Refuse politely. Also avoid the Remington 95 grain +P SJHP (R38S1) due to inadequate penetration.

The Glaser Safety Slug is a good choice for self-defense in a .38 revolver of any barrel length (see caveats under "exotic ammunition," above). It is crucial to keep the chambers and frame interior absolutely free of oil or solvents when carrying Glasers, as you don't want any Breakfree CLP or Hoppe's #9 solvent seeping into the primer pocket and deactivating the round. This is important for all rounds, of course, but the Glaser isn't known for particularly good sealing against such mishaps. You may also want to consider carrying two Glasers as the first rounds to be fired, and JHP loads for the rest. This gives you a bit of insurance if your assailant tucks himself behind a sheet rock wall or doorway or some other flimsy cover that JHP rounds can blast through.

A Special Note on Snub-Nose .38 Revolvers With 2" or 3" Barrels: The Cor-Bon .38 Special +P 125 grain JHP and 158 grain LSWCHP FBI load are not the best choice for 2" or 3" barrel revolvers. The short barrel does not provide enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion with these load, and the unpleasant and hard-to-control recoil hurts snub-nose accuracy (as well as your hand). Controllability is crucial, and I recommend non +P standard pressure loads, for the .38 snub-nose.

Good +P choices for a steel-frame 2" .38 snub-nose revolver are:

* Federal 125 grain +P Nyclad LSWHP (P38N) - my preferred .38 2" barrel snub-nose revolver load (a.k.a. the "Chief's Special" load, now available only to the police).
* Federal 129 grain +P Hydra-shok JHP (P38HS1)
* Remington 125 grain +P Golden Saber HPJ (GS38SB)
* Cor-Bon 110 grain +P JHP - I would recommend this high-pressure load only for the sturdy (and heavy) Ruger SP101 snub-nose .38 or .357 Magnum revolver.

Standard Pressure (non +P) Loads.

If you carry an aluminum-frame snub nose .38 (e.g. S&W Model 38 Bodyguard, 642, 442, 37, or Colt Cobra) I urge you to carry a standard pressure (non +P) .38 round. The best standard pressure .38 load is the Federal 125 grain Nyclad lead hollowpoint (P38M). This P38M hollowpoint - known as the "Chief's Special load" - was specifically designed to expand at lower velocities and is the industry leader in standard pressure .38 rounds. This load is now available to police departments only.

Another acceptable standard pressure .38 load is the Winchester Silvertip 110 grain JHP (X38S9HP). A third possibility is the Federal Low Recoil Personal Defense 110 grain Hydra-Shok JHP load (PD38HS3 H)

Note well: if you have a J-frame Smith & Wesson snub-nose .38 (i.e. the five-shot Model 36/37 Chief's Special, Model 38/49/649 Bodyguard, the 640/642/442/940 Centennial) you can greatly improve the controllability of your gun by installing Uncle Mike's "Boot Grip." This is a $14 godsend. The skinny little wooden grips that come on these guns are worthless. Installing good grips does wonders for your ability to control your .38 snub-nose revolver in rapid fire for more hits.

LINK

 

[Oyeboten]

I voted for the +P 158 grn LSWCHP...because I intend to get some...

Though till now, I'd always had my Carry .38 charged with old 'Peters' 158 grn RNL 'Police Load' Cartridges...and or, National Match, mid range, 148grn full Wadcutters.

 

[sixgunner455]

I tend to take Chuck Hawks with a grain of salt -- along with anyone else who can say with a straight face that a particular bullet or bullet weight is "cursed."

It's not rocket science, and it certainly isn't voodoo.

 

[wnycollector]

I am solidly in the LSWCHP camp but, as others have posted I prefer the remington flavor. They are currently loaded in my 1964 M36 right now. My backup speed loader is full of doubletap 125gr gold dots though. I find that the smooth jhp shape is MUCH easier to reload that the LSWCHP!

Here is a acticle where the remington and winchester LSWCHP ammo is comapred from both 4" and 2" barrels. http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm

 

[Deanimator]

I use the Federal version because I was able to buy a lot of them at a reasonable price a few years ago, but any name brand version of the "FBI" 158gr. LSWC-HP load should do just fine. I carry it in all of my .38/.357 guns.

 

[Diggers]

I watched a test the other month of different calibers shot into clay blocks for a comparison. If I remember correctly it went .22, .32 auto, .38 +p (110 grain HP), .357, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 and a .44 mag 180 grain. The clay was dense sculptors stuff about 12 inches thick.

I won’t get into all the clay splattering fun but the .38 really surprised me. This light .38 basically exploded on the front of the clay block. It left a dramatic crater only about 4 inches deep. I was told that this used to be a load that some PDs thought was good until they had to shoot through a light barrier and couldn’t.

In comparison, the .22 penetrated about 9 inches, the .32 flat nose zipped right through, the .44 blew up the clay block but stopped just sort of exiting the back of the block. Always interesting to see what different calibers and ammo does.

Anyhow, I saw that demonstration as more evidence that a heavy .38 is the way to go in a short barrel.

My perspective is penetration is by far the most important factor. If a load gives both penetration and expansion, that’s great, but in a .38 from a short barrel we may have to give up good expansion for penetration.

 

[jaydubya]

"Change the "Winchester" to "Remington" and it gets my vote."

Agree, and so voted. All commercially available FBI loads will penetrate 12" or more, so that is not a factor. According to Stephen Camp's informal tests, Winchester and Federal FBI loads probably will not expand when fired from a snubby -- their alloy is too hard (they should expand from longer barrels). On the other hand, the Remington version uses almost pure lead bullets, and probably will expand from a snubby. Which is why that is what is in my snubby 637. For another source using ballistic jelatin, www.brassfetcher.com. The expansion of Remington +p 158gr LSWCHP in jelatin, fired from a snubby, is very impressive -- almost 0.60".

On the other hand, as I have learned, if you drop a Remington 158gr LSWCHP cartridge it will almost certainly land on the bullet, almost certainly deforming the cavity, certainly converting it into a range round.

Cordially, Jack

 

[Eightball]

Winchester and Federal FBI loads probably will not expand when fired from a snubby -- their alloy is too hard (they should expand from longer barrels).

So, until I get additional funds/more options, would this seem to push more for the 125grs, or still stick with the Winchester rounds for penetration's sake? They both seem to shoot relatively well (in DA, SA they're both comparably "on")

 

[Cpt. America]

Also an easily overlooked defense load is the wad-cutter.