.38 Special reloads under minimum load

[Pripyat]

I made a ridiculous mistake. After I loaded up 50 rounds of .38 special at what I thought was maximum load (3.7 grains WST), I realized that the scale was set to 3.3 grains. (My 1/10 grain slider was 2 slots to the RIGHT instead of 2 slots to the LEFT of the 5 that represents 5/10 grain)

At least I caught it, I guess. I have a chrony and some loads that are identical but only have 3.5 and 3.6 grains of the same powder (I was stepping up by 1/10). I haven't chronied any of my .38 loads yet. My thought is that if I am careful (ensure a projectile exits the barrel each shot) I can shoot these and at least see where they chrony on the first couple shots and watch for warning signs that a projectile may become lodged. But, what are those warning signs? And is it worth the risk? Probably not. Someone confirm that I need to pull these and recharge, please. :/

 

[ljnowell]

With a 3.7gr max I am guessing that you are loading a 158gr bullet? If thats the case, according to Hodgdon, 3.3gr is the starting load and 3.7 is max. It should be fine to shoot. Just be careful and make sure the bullets all leave the barrel.

 

[Pripyat]

It is a 158 grain LRN. I saw that 3.3 was the minimum for LSWC.

I looked in all my books (I have three) and not a single one listed WST as a load for .38. I got some info off a forum and through interpolation checked that it made sense. It listed 3.5 as the minimum.

[edit] Before anyone starts - I have three reloading manuals and not a single one lists a load for WST in .38 special.

 

[ljnowell]

When it comes to lead bullets its a generally accepted rule in the reloading community that you can interchange data. Basically, pick the weight and seat to the crimp groove on a revolver cartridge and go with it. There are exceptions, but in this case you should be just fine.

 

[45_auto]

You won't be able to tell any difference between them and your other light loads. Shoot them and don't worry about it.

 

[greyling22]

shoot em. in a revolver, as long as they exit the barrel they will work to some degree. 3.3 is a starting load, not a minimum load. You could probably load a half a grain of wst in there and they would work. maybe 300 fps?

with fast powders in pistol cases, as long as you stay below the maximum there is a lot of wiggle room. Beyond that, cowboy action shooters use what many call "mouse fart" loads that are loaded well under "starting load" I know a few guys who use 2.5 grn of WST for their loads.

 

[Pripyat]

Thanks guys. My wife shoots the .38 and even though I have explained to stop shooting if something feels different I wanted to make sure the odds of a stuck projectile was nonexistently slim before I let the rounds leave the reloading bench. Thanks!

 

[greyling22]

primer alone will drive a bullet about 3" or so down a barrel. almost any amount of powder will allow the bullet to clear.

 

[ljnowell]

primer alone will drive a bullet about 3" or so down a barrel. almost any amount of powder will allow the bullet to clear.

Not anywhere near true. In many cases primer only will get a bullet an inch into the barrel or less. With a revolver having a gap between the cylinder and barrel its not uncommon for the bullet to stop in the forcing cone and tie up the gun.

 

[marv]

Never forget: If you hear a "poof" instead of a "BANG" stop shooting immediately and check your gun. And carry a wood dowel rod and hammer in your range bag. They can be your best friends.

 

[greyling22]

ljnowell, it's been my experience that a squib load will drive a 124grn lead bullet 2-3" down a barrel in a 9 and a 38 (both smith revolver and a marlin lever gun. I had some issues with a large flake powder bridging and had a rash of squibs for a while)

I don't know what makes my results different than yours. maybe jacketed is different? maybe a 158 has more contact surface?

 

[ljnowell]

ljnowell, it's been my experience that a squib load will drive a 124grn lead bullet 2-3" down a barrel in a 9 and a 38 (both smith revolver and a marlin lever gun. I had some issues with a large flake powder bridging and had a rash of squibs for a while)

Grey, I'm sorry if my post had the tone of calling you flat out wrong. All I was saying is that situations depend. Bullet profile, bearing surface length, jacketed or lead, mag or regular primer, etc all play a major role. I have had a squib in a 1911 that the bullet was still half in the chamber area, barely into the rifling and another that went a full inch and a half down the barrel.

I was more wanting to take task the comment about almost any amount of powder. Walkalong did some tests using W231 to see what it took to stick a bullet, maybe he can post the link to it, it would be good reference here.

Again, no offense meant.

 

[Pripyat]

Thanks for mentioning the walkalong test - Interesting read.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-523172.html

 

[stu1ritter]

While WST is slower than Bullseye, years ago the NRA did a test and took Bullseye down to half a grain loads without any problem. It seems, at least in a handgun, that the primer alone will get the bullet half way down the barrel. I think you will barely feel the difference between 3.3 and 3.7.
Stu

 

[Buck13]

Thanks for mentioning the walkalong test - Interesting read.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-523172.html

Interesting test in that old thread. Points out a safety feature of a recoil-operated auto: no bullet out of the barrel = no recoil, so no operation with a stuck bullet. You have to rack the slide to get into trouble.* A blowback auto might cycle. A revolver, you're definitely on your own to THINK before the next trigger pull.

*When the bullet goes part-way down the barrel, there could in principle be some displacement of the barrel, but from these results it sounds like there's no chance of that

 

[Walkalong]

I believe a primer will drive a bullet into the barrel, but it needs to be a squib with a low powder charge to get the bullet partly through the barrel.

This would be easy to test.

Maybe I'll load a 125 Gr lead bullet in a .38 case, as well as a 125 Gr lead bullet in 9MM, with no powder and fire them this evening. That is about as little resistance as it gets. It should tell the tale.

 

[greyling22]

that was a neat experiment walk, and I look forward to hearing what a 38 does. And I'm assuming I was way wrong about any amount of powder. I was assuming that based on my results with just a primer, that any powder would be enough extra kick in the pants to clear the bore, but I guess I was incorrect. I guess my brain knew that powder and velocity wasn't a linear relationship, but my gut reactions weren't paying attention when I was typing.

ljnowell, no offense taken. Especially since as I think more about it, squibs caused by bridging powder could have a few flakes dropped down in the case, which would give a little more punch to the primer but still feel like no powder.

 

[mstreddy]

OP
Winchester in their online load data does in fact list WST for 38 special 158 gr
158 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester WST .358" 1.475" 3.3 705 12,800 PSI 3.7 770 15,700 PS

This is from their listing.
So, you are just fine at 3.3grs. You can check it out for yourself at http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

 

[ljnowell]

I believe a primer will drive a bullet into the barrel, but it needs to be a squib with a low powder charge to get the bullet partly through the barrel.

This would be easy to test.

Maybe I'll load a 125 Gr lead bullet in a .38 case, as well as a 125 Gr lead bullet in 9MM, with no powder and fire them this evening. That is about as little resistance as it gets. It should tell the tale.

I can tell you for a fact that a 148gr cast DEWC with a primer only in a 38 case with push the bullet just far enough to lodge in the forcing cone causing the gun to lock up with the bullet half in the forcing cone half in the cylinder.

 

[docsleepy]

As I reported in the earlier thread, I have used 3.0 grains of W-2 31 for many years with 158 grain lead semi wadcutters. They go slow, but they definitely leave the barrel, and there is no question that you're fired a shot.

This has primarily been in a 2 inch snubby, and the results in your firearm may be different.

BEWARE IF YOU LOAD OUTSIDE PUBLISHED DATA

I can also tell you that I discovered the hard way that seating depth makes a big difference in this instance. Double ended wadcutters loaded flushed developed a great deal more velocity than I expected. Which I expect means they achieved a higher pressure.

 

[Walkalong]

a 148gr cast DEWC with a primer only in a 38 case with push the bullet just far enough to lodge in the forcing cone

I have no doubt. I chose a 125 Gr for less friction to give it the best chance of getting down the bore. I still don't think it will, and will find out soon.

 

[Jim Watson]

Before you start squibbing, let me share my version of Docsleepy's observation:

"I can also tell you that I discovered the hard way that seating depth makes a big difference in this instance."

I wanted some light loads for an IDPA BUG event. So I just substituted 125 gr moly coated conicals for 158 gr RN; same powder charge and OAL. The powder charge, 4.3 gr HP38, was in the range shown by Lyman, the OAL was about .1" longer than the book
Error #1.
I got two funny sounding shots but kept on.
Error #2.
Then I stuck a bullet, in a 2" barrel. Unburnt powder was scattered all over. I had not skipped charging a round; it just didn't ignite with the extra airspace. The target was at a down angle and the gun had come up from low ready, so all the powder was against the base of the bullet, as far from the primer as possible.

It was a lot harder to drive out a stuck lead bullet than I had expected from all the Internet Legends. I was very glad I had a brass rod and not a wood dowel.
I finished the day with some wadcutters I had along.

I reseated some of the remaining 125s to what Lyman showed for the bullet weight. They shot just fine.

 

[Walkalong]

The primer didn't even have enough force to break the crimp on the .38. The primer backed out and almost tied the gun up. Warmed up the round, but that's it.

I didn't try the 9MM.