38 spl Bullseye, Brinell, velocity, 158gr

[gonoles_1980]

The Alliant site and the Speer load manual are identical. Both assume a Speer LSWC (158gr). These manuals show Bullseye at 3.5grs (max) to have 814fps.

Looking in the Layman manual, 158gr Linotype show 3.4grs (max) to have 855fps.

I'm using the extreme 158gr LSWC, says 18 on the Brinell scale.
I don't know the Brinell scale for the Speer LSWCHP, they don't say on their site. I believe Linotype is around 22 Hardness.

Is the fact that Linotype is 22, while the others are around 18 the reason the pressure differences are so big?

I'm probably going 3.4gr with the Bullseye, though I see a lot of folks with a pet load of 3.5gr.

 

[rcmodel]

All of Speers lead bullets are soft swaged, not cast.

Speer uses very soft lead, probably about BNH 7 or 8.

At any rate, your Extreme bullets are much closer to the Linotype bullets Lyman lists then the swaged bullets Alliant & Speer list.

The differences in velocity are more due to the test equipment used then the pressure generated with either bullet type.

rc

 

[mdi]

Jes my experience w/lead bullets; I had no idea about BHN numbers for the first 14 years of my bullet casting. Range lead and wheel weights (some times mixed) were quite sufficient for all my handgun bullets, from .38 Special up to magnum loaded .44 Magnums. Fit is way more important for good shooting lead bullets than a specific BHN number. Most commercial casters use way too hard of an alloy (to eliminate shipping dings?) than necessary for 99% of lead bullet shooting. I believe some new shooters wanted to buy "Hard Cast", thinking harder is better, and the commercials casters just gave them what they want.

I shot some "normal cast" 357 Mag. bullets, 160 gr. .of wheel weight alloy, air cooled, sized to .3585"-.359", and somewhere around 9-12 BHN, with Speed Green lube over a slightly over max. charge of True Blue. Guesstimate of 1300+ fps, , and no leading, because they fit the gun ....

Your Speer data is for swaged bullets and the Lyman data for a cast bullet from linotype (opposite ends of the bullet hardness spectrum) Two different bullets, two different labs testing, possibly two different test fixtures/guns, different lots of powder, primers, and different brass. Prolly never get the exact same results.

As a new reloader always start with the starting load for the bullet you choose. As a new lead reloader measure the bullets and use the appropriate diameter for your gun (I size all my revolver bullets to the same diameter as the cylinder throats of the particular gun I'm reloading for). Once you get the basics down, for finer points of reloading lead bullets, you can change/experiment different components.methods...

 

[TimSr]

ganoles, your theory is exactly right. Lyman's lists hatter charges because its about the only source that assumes you are using Lyman molds and Lyman #2, which is a hard cast, while other sources assume cold swaged soft lead bullets list maxes where barrel leading becomes intolerable. Provided your bullets are a good fit for your barrel, can load up into full magnum land, and with a BRN of 18, I use jacketed data for max loads where they are based on pressure rather than expected leading to occur.

 

[gonoles_1980]

Midi I would say I've moved to the novice level at this point, loaded around 7500 rounds. But I'm still learning a lot of the finer points. And still have a ton to learn. Like which is better soft or hard cast? I can buy the cowboy loads from extreme and those are softer case. I clean my guns after every range trip, haven't notice a big issue with leading. Normally I can get the barrel pretty clean.

I still have zero clue what the various bullet shapes do for you, or the hardness of the lead does for you. I like the xtreme lead bullets with my nickel plated bullets, just makes cool silver like bullet. I can't tell if various loads are more accurate, I just load so it feels good in my hand. Or for my wife if it ejects appropriately and she likes it in her hand. Wish I shot better, but I only have a six inch CEP with my two snub nose (38 and 357) at 20ft. But I suspect that's more me than the bullet.

I go for the weight of the bullet that best fits the gun type, I don't like the lighter bullets.

I've only loaded up a 100 rounds this time, and 3.4gr of Bullseye is probably about right considering I shoot 3.5 to 3.8gr of W231 and 3.5gr of Titegroup. I may adjust a grain up or down depending on results that I test at the range. Normally I do, do ladder loads if I haven't used the powder before, but I do use Bullseye in my moderate 357 loads (4.5gr).

I read the manuals, get interesting information, still so much for me to learn. One day, I might know 25% as much as rcmodel knows . This place is full of great information.

It's like with beer, I know good beer from bad beer, but not sure I can tell gooder beer from good beer .

 

[TimSr]

The force of the pressure behind the bullet makes it expand for a tight fit in the barrel to grab the rifling, and seal the gases behind it.

Soft, cold swaged, bullets expand easier at lower pressures and tend to give better performance and accuracy with lighter loads. The downside is that when they get pushed too fast, they will strip through the rifling and shave off lead in your barrel, so you are limited to how warm you can load them.

Hard cast bullets will not expand and seal at low pressure, so if fit is less than perfect, they may loosely catch the rifling, and shave off lead at low pressures. They need to be loaded to higher pressures to expand in the barrel properly, seal well, and catch the rifling without stripping. Depending on hardness and fit, they can be loaded up to full magnum loads.

 

[Walkalong]

18 BHN is way too hard for that pressure/velocity. If it doesn't lead it will only be because it fits your throats perfectly and the throats are slightly over the groove diameter of your barrel.

If they lead, they are not a perfect fit, and you need a different diameter, or better yet, a softer alloy. Missouri bullet has 12 BHN bullets that would be just the ticket.

 

[gonoles_1980]

Very educational thread. Thx.

 

[Walkalong]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6232577&postcount=7

 

[joneb]

I load 3.6gr of Be w/a 158gr cast LSWC BHN 12 for a S&W 36.

 

[Dewey 68]

I was just looking for a similar starting load, but was looking to use MBC "Action" 158 grain LSWC and Bullseye in 38 special cases. I originally bought the bullets for use with 2400, but I was hoping to find a 38 special or + P load that would work with Bullseye with this bullet. I have a lot of the MBC wad cutters loaded with 2.8 grams of Bullseye that are a great load for recoil sensitive shooters. I'm looking for something in between that and the full boogie 2400 loads that would still work with this hard bullet. I've found a couple but figured I'd ask here.

I can start a new thread if you'd think I'd get a better response.

 

[mbopp]

I bought some Missouri 158gr 18BNH SWC bullets for reduced loads in my 357 Herrett Contender.
But in my 4" M-19 I have to push them with 5.0gr of Bullseye in 357 cases to get good accuracy out of them. Yes, my theory is that it needs a fairly hefty charge to upset the hard bullets. IIRR the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook put this as a +P load.

 

[denverrdan]

I load 3.1 bullseye in my GP and have never had a leading problem.

 

[Dewey 68]

mbopp, what is the OAL for that load? If this is from the Lyman manual I'll take a look at it when I get home. Sounds like what I'm looking for. Those are with 38 special cases, not .357 magnum, correct? I'll be using these in my GP100.

 

[joem1945]

I buy my cast bullets from MBC. I buy brinell 18 mostly except for .45 Colt which is 12. I tried brinell 12 in a .44 mag. Worked real good for 18 shots then accuracy went down hill . Checked the bore and it looked like a smooth bore. No more 12 in .44 mag.

 

[mbopp]

Dewey 68, I'm loading them in 357 Mag cases. I don't want that load ending up in a 38 Spl gun even though they're a +P load. OAL? I put a moderate crimp in the crimp groove, the length is what it is.
My M-19 is "retired" from all-up 357 loads but I don't mind shooting +P loads out of it.

 

[Dewey 68]

Thanks, and now that I read your original post I see that you said you are using .357 magnum cases. D'oh.

The Lyman manual shows a maximum load of 3.4 grains of Bullseye for that bullet in a 38 special case. Maybe I should just order some softer bullets and work up a different load.

 

[mbopp]

Well, that'll teach me to go by memory......
My load notebook and labels say I'm using 4.5gr of Bullseye, 357 cases, and Missouri 18BNH 158gr SWC bullets.

 

[Dewey 68]

I'll try the starting load in the recipe for the +P load in the Lyman manual. It calls for Linotype (BHN 22) so it should get the action bullet to obfuscate.

Thanks mbopp.