38 spl +p soft lead bullets for self defense

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From a short barrel the .38 spl is a marginalized cartridge. You can only do so much with a bullet when velocity is reduced. Even soft lead hollow points only offer a relatively small improvement. The Hornady critical defense solves the problem with the HP's clogging from clothing but from a 2" barrel the velocity will still be an issue.

Regardless of whether the bullet expands or not it is still deadly. If one round doesn't do it you have 4 more to try again with.

Video's shooting through 4 layers of denim may simulate winter wear in some areas of the country but in warm areas a single layer of T shirt would be more appropriate.
 
I carry Remington 158 gr. +P LHPSWC in my S&W 642. In my Bianchi speedloader I carry Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P hollowpoints.

I am much more likely though to be carrying a Glock 19 with 16 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P rounds in it.
 
That random old man was talking thru his hat.

Placement rules, but expansion and penetration are very important as well.

Expecting a solid, but "soft" lead bullet to expand in softer flesh is naively optimistic.
 
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Free unsolicited advice from random strangers is worth what you paid for it.
Like this.
 
Quote:

"Placement rules, but expansion and penetration are very important as well.

Expecting a solid, but "soft" lead bullet to expand in softer flesh is foolish."


Penetration is more important than expansion.

Expecting a hollow point in a .38 snubby to expand reliably in softer flesh is also foolish.
 
OGIE
[penetration is more important than expansion]I would have to disagree with you on that one .If that were entirely true why wouldn't everyone carry fmj instead of hp in any gun.I agree shot placement is key but having the ability to create a half inch wound channel with hp is a extreme advantage over being able to shoot through a brick wall at 30 feet.
 
Quote:

"OGIE
[penetration is more important than expansion]I would have to disagree with you on that one .If that were entirely true why wouldn't everyone carry fmj instead of hp in any gun.I agree shot placement is key but having the ability to create a half inch wound channel with hp is a extreme advantage over being able to shoot through a brick wall at 30 feet."

I agree to a poiint. However, carrying a 2" snubby does not allow for reliable expansion. Penetration with the 158 gr. +P load I mentioned is about 18 inches. That will make up for the fact that you may not get expansion OR sufficient penetration out of a hollow point load.

The reason that it is not as much of an issue with pistols that have longer barrels chambered in 9mm and higher is because expansion does become more reliable so that you have expansion and sufficient penetration.

Personally I prefer my Glock 19 with 124 gr. +P or one of my .45s to the .38 special loads. However, if I am carrying my S&W 642 I prefer certain penetration over possible expansion.
 
Why?

I like to get both!

As with any hollowpoint, there's a chance it won't expand. But it has a much higher chance of expanding than any solid bullet. If it doesn't expand, it'll perform like a solid, so what are you losing to the non-expanding solid?

If it does expand, then, ideally, all of the available energy is dumped into the target. As long as there is also adequate penetration (almost 100% guaranteed with modern loads in plausible situations) then even better.
 
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klutchless said:
Kind of like a 9mm might not expand but a 45 will never shrink.
Click to expand...

Except that we are talking about two bullet styles of the same caliber.

In which case, you have one that will NOT expand vs one that very probably will.
 
Obviously, not all hollowpoints are created equal. Choose wisely.

Four layers of denim is pointless, since many who carry a .38 snub do so in the hot summer months. Not too many badguys wear four layers of denim when it's over 100 degrees.

But the argument seems to be choosing a "soft" lead bullet, expecting it'll expand more consistently than a properly selected HP. Show us the gelatin pics (or post-mortem pics) that back that up, please.

Or that a properly selected HP won't have enough penetration for plausible real life encounters. Sure it does, expanded or not.

If solid bullets were just as effective as HP's, then why do 99.99% of law enforcement agencies issue HP's?
 
Quote:

"Obviously, not all hollowpoints are created equal. Choose wisely.

Four layers of denim is pointless, since many who carry a .38 snub do so in the hot summer months. Not too many badguys wear four layers of denim when it's over 100 degrees.

But the argument seems to be choosing a "soft" lead bullet, expecting it'll expand more consistently than a properly selected HP. Show us the gelatin pics (or post-mortem pics) that back that up, please.

Or that a properly selected HP won't have enough penetration for plausible real life encounters. Sure it does, expanded or not.

If solid bullets were just as effective as HP's, then why do 99.99% of law enforcement agencies issue HP's?"

You are either just being argumentative to be argumentative or you just don't get it.

Testing in denim is a standard protocol regardless of the temperature that day.

The load I suggested does not expand well, but it does penetrate very well. You must have missed that point, so no, I can't show where it would expand better than a hollow point. That wasn't the point.

And now it has to be " a properly selected HP"? :confused:

Are you not understanding that I am referring to a snub nose revolver in .38 Special? One with a barrel length of two inches or less? Perhaps you could list the LE agencies that use HPs in their standard issue snub nose revolvers.:rolleyes:

At any rate, we will agree to disagree. I don't think there is much else to be said on this issue by me. Have a good night!
 
You said that already, yet......

The protocol is what it is, it just doesn't apply well to all scenarios ....... like on 100 degree days. It's a standard protocol and as such, it can be scrutinized with simple common sense. :rolleyes:

Does anyone think that 13+ inches of penetration of a fully expanded .38 is inadequate for typical SD scenarios?

Over penetration can be worse than under penetration with that whole "hitting an innocent bystander" thing.

I don't know of a single LE agency that issues non HP ammo for standard duty use, regardless of the handgun. If you do, please cite one.

You missed the point that the "random old man" is the one that postulated "soft" lead bullets would expand in softer flesh and would do so more reliably than any HP. That's simply not true.
 
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Water-Man said:
Here's another "random old man" who says it works. ;)
Click to expand...
This must be the same "random old man" who told me:

1) .32 ACP won't penetrate a pair of overalls.

and

2) the .357 Magnum is a "borderline" man-stopper.

Funny how that guy gets around :p
 
"He may be talking about the old Federal 9BP load (if my memory works a little bit), which was a 158gr semi hollow point lead bullet."


The load you're thinking of is the 38G, a 158gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point +P load. It was, and still is, a very good load. It is what I carry most frequently in my 38/357s.

The 38H and 38C use the same bullet but in a solid nose (non HP) design. The C is a standard load and the H is +P.
 
This horse just won't stay down.

Penetration is what you have to have. Expansion is nice if you can get it. Paying for expansion with penetration is not recommended, but hey, you load yours your way and I'll load mine my way.
 
Expecting a solid, but "soft" lead bullet to expand in softer flesh is naively optimistic.
Click to expand...

What normal target isn't softer than any bullet? Bullets can deform by being shot into water alone. On Mythbusters, .223 rounds were falling apart upon impact with water.

The reasoning quoted above doesn't hold up.
 
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Yes, fmj .223's fired from 10 feet away disintegrate in water....

But most .38 Special snubnose guns do not launch a projectile of any weight, much less one that's 158 grains, at 3250 feet per second, so the comparison is ludicrous. If yours does, then it's a keeper!
 
I told him Hornady critical defense.His response was it was a waste of money and that a soft lead bullet loaded in the +p range was just as effective and that I shouldn't get caught in such trends.
Click to expand...
You should have asked him....

"How many people have you shot with soft lead .38+P rounds, and how many people have you shot with Hornady Critical Defense rounds?"


Unless he has shot folks with both rounds then he's just speculating.
 
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