stevelyn
Member
Reliable gun you shoot well with + any good quality HP ammo from major makers + fast accurate shot placement = BG lying in red puddle 
The Most Potent Self Defense Rounds
- Thread starter Blain
- Start date
- Status
Sir Galahad
member
WbHobbit, I know it's from !@#$% & @#$%^. That's why it's BS. Find me the SOURCES for their info. Yeah, that's what I thought...
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,195
Blain:
Many years ago I came up with a well-meaning idea to write a paper that discussed "stopping power" and listed the top performing "one-shot stop" loads for each cartridge, similar to what you posted here. I wanted to put together a pamphlet about personal defense ammunition selection that could be handed out to interested customers at local gun shops. The pamphlet was going to list the recommendations of a few law enforcement experts, notably Evan Marshall, Ed Sanow and Massad Ayoob. The intent of the pamphlet was to consolidate the recommendations of these experts into a single document for reference purposes as well as to provide some basic information about stopping power.
I actually started writing that pamphlet but I never finished it because my research into "stopping power" led me to change my beliefs about ammunition effectiveness.
Anyhow, it looks like someone put a lot of time and effort into writing the article you posted. Since the author isn't identified, is it safe to assume you're the writer?
Although I don't agree with the content of the article, I do recommend that the article at least mention Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow as the sources for where the one-shot stop data was obtained, as well as the specific reference documents where the data was obtained. The reason is because some readers may not be familiar with the Marshall/Sanow one-shot stop percentage rating system.
Cheers!
Many years ago I came up with a well-meaning idea to write a paper that discussed "stopping power" and listed the top performing "one-shot stop" loads for each cartridge, similar to what you posted here. I wanted to put together a pamphlet about personal defense ammunition selection that could be handed out to interested customers at local gun shops. The pamphlet was going to list the recommendations of a few law enforcement experts, notably Evan Marshall, Ed Sanow and Massad Ayoob. The intent of the pamphlet was to consolidate the recommendations of these experts into a single document for reference purposes as well as to provide some basic information about stopping power.
I actually started writing that pamphlet but I never finished it because my research into "stopping power" led me to change my beliefs about ammunition effectiveness.
Anyhow, it looks like someone put a lot of time and effort into writing the article you posted. Since the author isn't identified, is it safe to assume you're the writer?
Although I don't agree with the content of the article, I do recommend that the article at least mention Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow as the sources for where the one-shot stop data was obtained, as well as the specific reference documents where the data was obtained. The reason is because some readers may not be familiar with the Marshall/Sanow one-shot stop percentage rating system.
Cheers!
Ammo
I really cant say which is the best for all situations,the only time i had to use a pistol at close range was in nam. Using 45ball ammo i ruined a vc.s day by shooting him in the head at about 20 ft, i remember the round just about snapping his head backwards and knocking him down,end of fight, period. Afterwards examing the body the ball rnd did terriffic damage, now i cant say how HPs are, but if they are better than ball that we used i definatly would not want to get hit by it,. You might want to search the web, for studies done by the milt. on wound accessment. I still think its the shot placement, not so much the size of the bullet, but this discussion could go on forever, anyway this is my 2cents worth!!!
I really cant say which is the best for all situations,the only time i had to use a pistol at close range was in nam. Using 45ball ammo i ruined a vc.s day by shooting him in the head at about 20 ft, i remember the round just about snapping his head backwards and knocking him down,end of fight, period. Afterwards examing the body the ball rnd did terriffic damage, now i cant say how HPs are, but if they are better than ball that we used i definatly would not want to get hit by it,. You might want to search the web, for studies done by the milt. on wound accessment. I still think its the shot placement, not so much the size of the bullet, but this discussion could go on forever, anyway this is my 2cents worth!!!
themic
Member
i think the article was rather fine for someone who is new to the field, and is looking for a general picture of calibers and ammunition all in one document and in one format.
i do disagree with the strong statement that 9mm 147 gr is unreliable (even though i personally prefer 115 gr)
i do think it would be better to have a brief explanation of where the statistics come from, and maybe an explanation of what a one-shot stop is (people who want to believe, will; those who tend to question, will question, and move on).
in the end, i don't think anyone can go wrong with any of the ammo it did recommend, as long as they test it in their particular gun.
i do disagree with the strong statement that 9mm 147 gr is unreliable (even though i personally prefer 115 gr)
i do think it would be better to have a brief explanation of where the statistics come from, and maybe an explanation of what a one-shot stop is (people who want to believe, will; those who tend to question, will question, and move on).
in the end, i don't think anyone can go wrong with any of the ammo it did recommend, as long as they test it in their particular gun.
Island Beretta
Member
<sigh> Now I am going to have to go to the range and fire out all my 147gr. Winchester SXT. I always thought they were good ammo - never jammed on me, soft shooting and helped me out in a number of defensive situations so that I am alive today to write this post. But now I am reading that it is no good <sigh> But what do I know?.. real life experience does not hold up to theoretical constructs
standingbear
Member
44 magnum only 90%?what about the "other" 10%?did they miss???
George Hill
Member
Torso hits.
M&S tests are bogus because these % numbers have hits that pass through the lungs or other organs and these are not taken into account.
Neither is the angle of incident. Range the round was fired at. The layers of clothing the subject was wearing. The toxicology of the subject hit and the level of endorphines and adrenaline in the system can also play a huge effect. So does the level of agression and motivation of the subject to carry out the act which he was fired upon to stop.
There a way too many factors - including dumb luck - to calculate. Never mind M&S tests never detail the hits or even the number of hits measured on each stat.
That is what makes M&S scores "Junk".
It's all about your shot placement and not the load. Because I can bet you anything if I score a heart shot with an FMJ it's going to have a higher % of One Shot Stops than with JHPs hitting only a lung.
M&S tests are bogus because these % numbers have hits that pass through the lungs or other organs and these are not taken into account.
Neither is the angle of incident. Range the round was fired at. The layers of clothing the subject was wearing. The toxicology of the subject hit and the level of endorphines and adrenaline in the system can also play a huge effect. So does the level of agression and motivation of the subject to carry out the act which he was fired upon to stop.
There a way too many factors - including dumb luck - to calculate. Never mind M&S tests never detail the hits or even the number of hits measured on each stat.
That is what makes M&S scores "Junk".
It's all about your shot placement and not the load. Because I can bet you anything if I score a heart shot with an FMJ it's going to have a higher % of One Shot Stops than with JHPs hitting only a lung.
Schmit
Member
Well, if I'm ever in a shooting I know it will never be considered in M&S data.... Standard Response - two shots to center mass.
gryphon
Member
For those who want an alternative to M&S' stats, give me a nice, large, juicy grant so I can perform my own study. I'm afraid that through my meager wage I couldn't afford to take the time to study everything they did without a little help.
Politically Incorrect
Member
I really believe that Marshall and Sanow's intentions are good, but ballistics in relation to stopping a person is has as much uncertainty as Ohio getting concealed carry this year. A .22 will kill as effectively as a .45 depending on shot placement and the degree of luck that is conditional to the range that one is firing.
I don't believe there is much science in M&S's tests. It's simply their way to look at some statistics. Just look at any of the Violence Policy Center studies.
I don't believe there is much science in M&S's tests. It's simply their way to look at some statistics. Just look at any of the Violence Policy Center studies.
WebHobbit
Member
Killing power and Stopping Power have just about zero to do with one another. If we just needed killing power than FMJs would be the load of choice in ALL calibers.
Trumpetman
Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2005
- Messages
- 34
Newby response to "One-Stop-Shot" threads
I've been shooting for 15 months, ever since I was robbed and shot at in April of 2004. I appreciate all of the data and opinions found in this thread, and I wanted to share some thoughts from a newby.
First of all, I know the importance of shot placement. If not for the grace of God and the poor marksmanship of my attacker, my wife could be a widow, and my two children fatherless. My BG obviously did not practice, as he missed a 300-pound man at 10-12 paces. During my first outings to the range I didn't even know I was supposed to practice up-close and personal. I was very disappointed in my 25-yard misses with my newly-acquired S&W 9VE (9MM) pistol. Eventually we moved to within two miles of a nice range, and my learning curve increased exponentially as I practiced at 7 yards, 10 yards, and beyond, with coaching from very helpful 'range rats,' some of whom are experts in one area of shooting sport or another.
Secondly, I have learned to read and listen to experienced shooters and find common threads among all of the theories and opinions that prove out in my own experience. For example, I have bought only the guns that I have found to fit my hand properly, are known to be reliable and accurate for the purpose for which I am purchasing them, and that use a caliber of ammunition that I can afford to practice with on a regular basis.
Thirdly, I have learned the importance of carrying at least one gun everywhere I go, even to church on Sundays. You never know what kind of nut-case might come into a church service and attack worshippers unaware. One of my friends was scolding me one day for carrying a .25 ACP pocket pistol when I asked him to show me what he was carrying. He bragged about his $2,500 1911 .45 "back at home in the safe," but he would be useless in a gun fight, while I at least had a hunk of metal to throw at a BG. By the way, I had practiced at the range with that little Raven, and I was dead-on at 7 yards, with no misfeeds, misfires or malfunctions of any kind, even after I had accidently dropped the Raven in the toilet! (I can hear some of you guys now: "You should have flushed it down!") Anyway, with shorts and a T-shirt, my Raven was the best I could do at the time.
Fourthly, be ready to shoot. I found out the hard way that the bad guy won't think twice about pulling the trigger. There's no bluffing in this "game." It's NOT a game!
I have shot more than a thousand rounds through my 9MM pistol, more than 2,000 rounds through my .22 revolver, hundreds of rounds through my shotguns, and more than 200 rounds through my muzzleloader. In addition, guys at the range have allowed me the priviledge of shooting some really awesome pieces of machinery from competition quality .45's to big-bang blasters in .357 and .44 magnum calibers. Even with the occasional "bickering," I have found gun-owners in general to be a very helpful community of proud citizens.
As for the results of my research, the proof is in the purchases I made. I was able to squeeze out a little over $600 for firearms, plus the $300 the police confiscated from the BG that robbed me. (They gave me back the money he stole from me, plus what he already had on him.) Here are the choices I made for firearms:
1. Home defense and squirrel hunting: Mossberg 500 pump action in 20 gauge loaded with #3 buckshot.
$100 used. (Included extra slug barrel.)
2. Primary carry:
Smith and Wesson Sigma 9VE loaded with 18 rounds of 115 grain Winchester USA hollowpoints.
$269 NIB (Three 10-round mags and one 17-round mag.)
3. Secondary carry:
Phoenix Arms Raven .25 ACP loaded with 35 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow points in the summer, and 50 grain Winchester USA round nose in the winter and whenever people are wearing coats.
$0 -- A gift from my Aunt Bea.
4. Small game, family hangun safety training:
Ruger Single Six combo .22lr/.22Mag. using mostly Winchester Dynapoints in LR or Mag.
$289 NIB
5. Family shotgun training:
New England Firearms single-shot break-action .410 bore.
$89 NIB
6. Family rifle training: Savage .22lr bolt-action, clip-fed rifle.
$99 NIB
7. Dear hunting: New England Firearms Huntsman muzzleloader in .50 caliber. (Got my first deer 20 minutes after start time on opening day last November.)
$150 NIB (With extra 12-gauge shotgun barrel.)
Thanks for all your advise and help in getting started in this great new world of firearms.
I've been shooting for 15 months, ever since I was robbed and shot at in April of 2004. I appreciate all of the data and opinions found in this thread, and I wanted to share some thoughts from a newby.
First of all, I know the importance of shot placement. If not for the grace of God and the poor marksmanship of my attacker, my wife could be a widow, and my two children fatherless. My BG obviously did not practice, as he missed a 300-pound man at 10-12 paces. During my first outings to the range I didn't even know I was supposed to practice up-close and personal. I was very disappointed in my 25-yard misses with my newly-acquired S&W 9VE (9MM) pistol. Eventually we moved to within two miles of a nice range, and my learning curve increased exponentially as I practiced at 7 yards, 10 yards, and beyond, with coaching from very helpful 'range rats,' some of whom are experts in one area of shooting sport or another.
Secondly, I have learned to read and listen to experienced shooters and find common threads among all of the theories and opinions that prove out in my own experience. For example, I have bought only the guns that I have found to fit my hand properly, are known to be reliable and accurate for the purpose for which I am purchasing them, and that use a caliber of ammunition that I can afford to practice with on a regular basis.
Thirdly, I have learned the importance of carrying at least one gun everywhere I go, even to church on Sundays. You never know what kind of nut-case might come into a church service and attack worshippers unaware. One of my friends was scolding me one day for carrying a .25 ACP pocket pistol when I asked him to show me what he was carrying. He bragged about his $2,500 1911 .45 "back at home in the safe," but he would be useless in a gun fight, while I at least had a hunk of metal to throw at a BG. By the way, I had practiced at the range with that little Raven, and I was dead-on at 7 yards, with no misfeeds, misfires or malfunctions of any kind, even after I had accidently dropped the Raven in the toilet! (I can hear some of you guys now: "You should have flushed it down!") Anyway, with shorts and a T-shirt, my Raven was the best I could do at the time.
Fourthly, be ready to shoot. I found out the hard way that the bad guy won't think twice about pulling the trigger. There's no bluffing in this "game." It's NOT a game!
I have shot more than a thousand rounds through my 9MM pistol, more than 2,000 rounds through my .22 revolver, hundreds of rounds through my shotguns, and more than 200 rounds through my muzzleloader. In addition, guys at the range have allowed me the priviledge of shooting some really awesome pieces of machinery from competition quality .45's to big-bang blasters in .357 and .44 magnum calibers. Even with the occasional "bickering," I have found gun-owners in general to be a very helpful community of proud citizens.
As for the results of my research, the proof is in the purchases I made. I was able to squeeze out a little over $600 for firearms, plus the $300 the police confiscated from the BG that robbed me. (They gave me back the money he stole from me, plus what he already had on him.) Here are the choices I made for firearms:
1. Home defense and squirrel hunting: Mossberg 500 pump action in 20 gauge loaded with #3 buckshot.
$100 used. (Included extra slug barrel.)
2. Primary carry:
Smith and Wesson Sigma 9VE loaded with 18 rounds of 115 grain Winchester USA hollowpoints.
$269 NIB (Three 10-round mags and one 17-round mag.)
3. Secondary carry:
Phoenix Arms Raven .25 ACP loaded with 35 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow points in the summer, and 50 grain Winchester USA round nose in the winter and whenever people are wearing coats.
$0 -- A gift from my Aunt Bea.
4. Small game, family hangun safety training:
Ruger Single Six combo .22lr/.22Mag. using mostly Winchester Dynapoints in LR or Mag.
$289 NIB
5. Family shotgun training:
New England Firearms single-shot break-action .410 bore.
$89 NIB
6. Family rifle training: Savage .22lr bolt-action, clip-fed rifle.
$99 NIB
7. Dear hunting: New England Firearms Huntsman muzzleloader in .50 caliber. (Got my first deer 20 minutes after start time on opening day last November.)
$150 NIB (With extra 12-gauge shotgun barrel.)
Thanks for all your advise and help in getting started in this great new world of firearms.
More Junk Science:
According to my owner's manual my FEG 9mm PJK9HP is rated for +p ammo, and by the way it feeds hollowpoints just fine.
Don't know where this 'expert data' came from but it's chock full of problems.
According to my owner's manual my FEG 9mm PJK9HP is rated for +p ammo, and by the way it feeds hollowpoints just fine.
Don't know where this 'expert data' came from but it's chock full of problems.
Blackhawk 6
Member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2003
- Messages
- 439
Per Dr. Gary Roberts:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, etc…)
----------------------------------------
Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers--pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios. Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferrably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.
The keys are:
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964
Sum things up rather nicely if you ask me.
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, etc…)
----------------------------------------
Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers--pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios. Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferrably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.
The keys are:
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964
Sum things up rather nicely if you ask me.
I think the only thing that I ever read like this that I believed is that article in the PO Ackley reloading books about them trying to develop a cartridge to replace the 30'06. It really showed how everything from location to muscle density changed everything. It was all done on live animals and the test results were amazing. It was hard for them to relly do any sort of good comparison even with the ton of stuff they shot. good read for anyone interested.
happy old sailor
Member
Trumpetman has learned what i learned back in the '60s. any round is better than no round and no gun. a little baby Browning in .25 saved me from a serious problem. all he had was a motorcycle chain, and left a dusty trail in an asphalt parking lot. i carry bigger stuff now, but, there again, any gun against no gun is always a plus
.357 Sig vs. .357 Mag.
Why the difference in "one shot stop" numbers for the .357 Sig? The CorBon 125 grain hollowpoint is identical ballistically (1450 fps) to the famous Federal 125 grain hollowpoint with it's 96% one shot stops in almost a thousand documented shootings. Evidently not enough people carry the Sig to have many actual results yet....but if the ballistics are identical....why the difference in effect? What's the theory? So why is the top end for the Sig only "86%"?
Why the difference in "one shot stop" numbers for the .357 Sig? The CorBon 125 grain hollowpoint is identical ballistically (1450 fps) to the famous Federal 125 grain hollowpoint with it's 96% one shot stops in almost a thousand documented shootings. Evidently not enough people carry the Sig to have many actual results yet....but if the ballistics are identical....why the difference in effect? What's the theory? So why is the top end for the Sig only "86%"?
Blain: thanks for stats
Thanks for the stats... I know there is alot of controversey about Marshal and Sanow...it makes sense to me though...the more energy...the more shock and destruction, the quicker the incapacitation. Thus the faster fragmenting rounds tend to come out on top. Statistics can easily be confused, but there must be something to their stats: 50 guys get hit in the torso with a 357 Mag and 96% of them fall down with one shot. 50 guys get hit in the torso with a .380, and only 58% of them fall down after one shot. Doesn't that say something?
Of course there are many other factors...but...still important information for the whole picture.
Thanks for the stats... I know there is alot of controversey about Marshal and Sanow...it makes sense to me though...the more energy...the more shock and destruction, the quicker the incapacitation. Thus the faster fragmenting rounds tend to come out on top. Statistics can easily be confused, but there must be something to their stats: 50 guys get hit in the torso with a 357 Mag and 96% of them fall down with one shot. 50 guys get hit in the torso with a .380, and only 58% of them fall down after one shot. Doesn't that say something?
Of course there are many other factors...but...still important information for the whole picture.
Blain dont let them get you down, I see you took a lot of time to post this, it is not w/ofault and I read it some where else on a sight called recguns long ago though but you can tell it has been updated.
People tend to get worked up in the Marshall/Sanow vs. Fackler debate too much but there is some to be learned from both. I tend to agree the 147gr 9mm is a poor performer though, many of the local PD's around here did not like it's performance. However I believe San Diego PD reported good results with it. To each his own I suppose.
All handguns are in the poor performance category IMO anyways and shot placement is of course very important. The list of reliable handguns is meant as a general guide anyways I believe, not as gosple truth.
I have a Walther P1 that feed 9mm hollowpoints fine as well as a Helwan that does ok with them even though they are listed as not doing so. The Llama is right on the money though, 100% with ball, chokes even on Rem hollowpoints.
People tend to get worked up in the Marshall/Sanow vs. Fackler debate too much but there is some to be learned from both. I tend to agree the 147gr 9mm is a poor performer though, many of the local PD's around here did not like it's performance. However I believe San Diego PD reported good results with it. To each his own I suppose.
All handguns are in the poor performance category IMO anyways and shot placement is of course very important. The list of reliable handguns is meant as a general guide anyways I believe, not as gosple truth.
I have a Walther P1 that feed 9mm hollowpoints fine as well as a Helwan that does ok with them even though they are listed as not doing so. The Llama is right on the money though, 100% with ball, chokes even on Rem hollowpoints.
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