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HANDGUN AMMUNITION FOR
SELF DEFENSE Ammunition manufactured in the United States is among the finest in the world. For potential defensive use, the gun owner will not go wrong in selecting ammunition produced by the most widely recognized manufacturers. These include CCI/Speer, Cor-Bon, Federal, Remington, and Winchester. Munitions available at the Armory include those produced by the first three of these manufacturers. Avoid ammunition that is hand loaded, re-loaded, or of foreign manufacture when choosing defensive rounds.
Bullets come in a wide variety of shapes, metals, and multi-metal composites. Bullet types commonly encountered in self-defense applications are summarized as follows:
FMJ Full Metal Jacket. The round-nosed bullet is enclosed on its top and sides in a hard metal jacket, usually consisting of an alloy of copper or occasionally mild steel. The base of the bullet is open, exposing a lead core. The bullet design is not conducive to either expansion or deformation. According to terms of the Hague Convention of 1899, and subsequently the Geneva Convention, this is the only type of bullet permitted in small arms during warfare. It is also referred to as "ball" ammunition.
JHP
Jacketed Hollow Point. The bullet is constructed of a soft lead core enclosed in a hard metal jacket. The top of the bullet has an opening in the jacket, exposing a hollow lead core. Upon impact, the bullet is forced to open up and expand. This results in less penetration, but greater tissue damage due to the larger diameter of the now expanded bullet.
LHP
Lead Hollow Point. The bullet is similar to a JHP, but is constructed completely of lead and has no jacket.
SJHP
Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point. This bullet is similar to a JHP, but the jacket does not completely cover the lead core. A small section of core at the top of the bullet is left exposed. This older bullet design is still common in the .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum calibers.
LRN
Lead Round Nose
LW
Lead Wadcutter. The bullet is flat-nosed.
Recommendations regarding handgun ammunition for self defense follow:
.22 LR (Long Rifle) Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: 21-34% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
CCI "Stinger" LHP 32 grains 34%
Federal LHP 38 grains 30%
Winchester LHP 37 grains 29%
Remington LHP 36 grains 27%
In a perfect world, the intended victim would be relying on a caliber larger than the .22 for self defense. In such a perfect world, why would one need to defend themselves in the first place? Consider the .22 to be an imperfect solution to a real world necessity, or put differently "something is better than nothing". The diminutive .22 makes sense with citizens reluctant to pack or carry a larger caliber handgun. Some fine .22 caliber pocket autoloaders exist, and 8- to 10-shot .22 caliber revolvers are extremely fun to shoot. Use .22LR ammunition only.
The recommended CCI "Stinger" will cycle reliably in the excellent Beretta 21A and Walther TPH pistols. Remington's "Yellow Jacket", 33 grain cartridge will also work well. The inexpensive Jennings J-22 pistol is more reliable when fed LRN standard velocity ammunition. Consider Winchester LRN, 40 grains, even though the one shot stopping success of this round is only 21%.
In a revolver, consider using Remington's "Viper" cartridge, which features a non-expanding truncated nose bullet.
Because ammunition is cheap, there exists no excuse for not developing required shooting skills. Marksmanship is crucial with a .22 in a defensive situation, so practice drawing your firearm and rapidly peppering objects from ten to twenty-five feet away. Cans, melons, and discarded bowling pins make ideal targets. Bowling pins used to be free, but now a nominal cost is usually involved to obtain them.
The .22 autoloader must be kept free of gunk, dust, and grit to function reliably. Make sure to keep the firearm meticulously clean and properly lubricated. Replace unused .22 ammunition in the magazine at least every six months or so because it tends to misfire when subjected to temperature and weather extremes over a period of time.
.22 Magnum Caliber: (.22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire; WMR)
One Shot Stopping Success: 40 -42 % (Theoretical)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester JHP 40 grains
CCI +P JHP 30 grains
Ruger makes a fine single action revolver capable of shooting both the .22 LR and .22 Magnum cartridges. This is accomplished by means of interchangeable cylinders, each intended to accommodate the differing length cartridges. The barrel of the gun is suited to either caliber since they are both .22.
.25 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: 22-25% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester "XP"
JHP 45 grains 25%
Winchester FMJ 50 grains 23%
Federal FMJ 50 grains 22%
Remington FMJ 50 grains 22%
Try the JHP round to see if it functions reliably in your auto- loading pistol. The rule of thumb is to shoot 200 rounds without a jam as the test of reliability. The JHP reportedly works well in Beretta 950 and 21A .25 caliber pistols. The Walther TPH in .25 caliber should be loaded with FMJ.
The .25 ACP cartridge was developed as an alternative to the .22 LR for use in autoloading pistols. The former, a center-fired cartridge, provides a degree of dependability not found in the .22 LR, which is a rim-fired cartridge. Which of these calibers of autoloading pistol should an individual consider purchasing for self-defense? Neither. Buy a .22 LR autoloader for fun because ammunition is inexpensive and the firearm will likely experience considerable use as a plinker. For self defense, consider the .32 ACP to be the minimum acceptable caliber when deep concealment is an issue.
.32 ACP Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: 50-63% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester "Silvertip" JHP 60 grains 63%
Winchester FMJ 71 grains 50%
The Beretta .32 ACP "Tomcat", loaded with Winchester "Silvertip", 60 grains, is certainly a viable defensive concealable handgun. It is enjoyable to shoot, a feature that encourages practice and, hence, proper shot placement during any potential encounter with a violent aggressor. Penetration can be expected to be in the range of 6 to 8 inches.
Most of the common .32 ACP autoloaders on the market are only reliable with FMJ. These include Llama, Walther PP and PPK, Czech CZ-24 and CZ-70, Davis P-32, and Colt Pocket Model, among others.
.32 Smith & Wesson Long Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridge:
Federal LW 98 grains
This is an obsolete revolver caliber.
.380 ACP Caliber: (9 mm Short, 9 x 17 mm, 9 mm Kurz)
One Shot Stopping Success: 51-70% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Cor-Bon +P JHP 90 grains 70%
Federal "Hydra-Shok" JHP 90 grains 69%
Federal JHP 90 grains 69%
Winchester "Silvertip" JHP 85grains 61%
CCI JHP 88grains 58%
Remington JHP 88 grains 57%
The .380 ACP, or "three eighty auto", represents a higher level of self-protection insurance when compared to smaller calibers, with penetration ranging from 8 to 10 inches. In fact, the top three recommended .380 ACP cartridges outperform the larger .38 Special when the latter is fired from a 2-inch snub nose revolver. The "snubby" has a long history as a favorite concealment firearm of the law enforcement community.
The Cor-Bon +P, JHP is the most powerful .380 ACP round. The Federal "Hydra-Shok" is the best standard pressure .380 ACP round. These cartridges will feed reliably in the SIG/Sauer P230, Beretta 84/85, Browning BDA, Czech CZ-83, H&K P7K3, and Walther PPK and PPK/s.
Makarov pistols of Russian, East German, Chinese, and Bulgarian manufacture will stand up to the potent Cor-Bon cartridge due to their all steel construction. The round feeds reliably in these guns. The Colt .380 ACP also performs well with the Cor-Bon round.
The Remington JHP, 88 grains, is the most reliable feeding cartridge due to the rounded shape of the bullet. In the last decade, it was redesigned to provide deeper penetration. Positive feeding can be expected in Colt Government Model .380, H&K HK4, Taurus PT-58, older Walther PP and PPK, Bersa .380, Beretta 70's, Makarov and Hungarian FEG.
A number of rounds recommended because of their proven ability to produce one shot stops may not feed reliably in some makes of handguns. The Winchester Silvertip, JHP, works well in modern SIG/Sauers and Berettas of European design, but will tend to jam in handguns of American design. Russian .380 Makarovs and the Walther PPK series handguns are also jam prone as well with this cartridge.
The truncated cone bullet nose profile of the Federal JHP, 90 grains, also may not be conducive to reliable feeding in many .380 autoloaders.
Stick to the top two recommended cartridges, Cor-Bon +P and Federal "Hydra-Shok". If the firearm is subject to jamming with these rounds, switch to the Remington JHP.
Federal FMJ, 95 grains, has a 51% one shot stopping success. This cartridge is well suited for use in the Davis P-380, Accu-Tek, EAA -380, Tanarmi, AMT/OMC/TDE "Backup", Heritage, FIE, Jennings, Bryco, Lorcin, Llama, and other low-priced handguns. The JHP ammunition should never be considered for use in these firearms.
9 mm Makarov Caliber: (9 x 18 mm)
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridge:
Cor-Bon JHP 95 grains
Cor-Bon manufactures the only JHP on the market for this caliber. It is totally reliable in all East-Bloc pistols.
.38 Special Caliber: 2-inch Barrel
One Shot Stopping Success: 49-67% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester +P LHP 158 grains 67%
Federal +P LHP 158 grains 66%
Federal +P JHP 125 grains 65%
Remington +P LHP 158 grains 65%
CCI +P JHP 125 grains 64%
Ammunition labeled +P (for extra pressure) should be used only in steel framed revolvers approved by the manufacturer for such use. Ultra high pressure loads, such as the Cor-Bon +P+, JHP, 115 grains, should be used only in extremely sturdy revolvers such as the Ruger SP101.
Standard pressure (non +P) rounds are suited for use in aluminum frame snub nose revolvers such as the Smith & Wesson Model 38 Bodyguard, 642, 442, 37, or Colt Cobra. Firing a few (less than 100) rounds of +P ammunition probably won't ruin the gun, but extended use of +P cartridges will cause some damage. Accuracy with a light weight snubby is extremely susceptible to the unpleasant blast and kick produced by +P ammunition. The gun is much more controllable in rapid fire with standard pressure rounds. Acceptable ammunition includes the Federal "Nyclad", LHP, 125 grains, which was designed to expand at lower velocities, and the Winchester "Silvertip", JHP, 110 grains.
The ability to control a snub nose revolver is greatly improved by the addition of after market rubber grips to replace the wooden factory grips.
.38 Special Caliber: 4-inch Barrel
One Shot Stopping Success: 51-83 % (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Cor-Bon +P+ JHP 115 grains 83%
Winchester +P LHP 158 grains 78%
Federal +P LHP 158 grains 77%
Federal +P JHP 125 grains 73%
Remington +P SJHP 125 grains 73%
Winchester +P+ JHP 110 grains 71%
CCI +P JHP 125 grains 70%
Remington +P LHP 158 grains 69%
Surprising, the very high pressure Cor-Bon produces less felt recoil and muzzle flip when compared to the second-ranked recommended cartridge. However, it should be used only in modern 6-shot revolvers.
The 158 grain recommendations are known as the "FBI" or "Chicago" loads. They are proven manstoppers, about on par with .45 caliber ball. All fixed sight .38 Special revolvers are regulated at the factory to shoot point-of-aim with this load. Lighter grained bullets will tend to shoot lower.
For practice, it is economical to shoot CCI JHP, 158 grains, in the inexpensive aluminum-cased "Blazer" line. This round duplicates the ballistics and recoil of the FBI load without fouling the handgun barrel with lead deposits, which are extremely difficult to remove during cleaning.
The admonition concerning +P ammunition is again reiterated: restrict the use of +P loads to steel framed .38 Special revolvers only. Use standard pressure loads in aluminum-framed revolvers. Shooting less than 50 rounds of +P ammunition in an aluminum framed revolver probably won't hurt it. Shooting more than 100 probably will. Why not practice with standard pressure loads, and carry +P ammunition in an aluminum frame revolver when packing it for self-defense? The kick of a +P round is severe, and inhibits accurate repeat shots. With standard pressure ammunition, proper shot placement and rapid delivery of subsequent hits is enhanced. The best standard pressure .38 Special load is the Federal "Nyclad", LHP, 125 grains. This round is known as the "Chief's Special" load. The Winchester "Silvertip", JHP, 110 grains, is another acceptable standard pressure .38 Special cartridge.
Penetration of .38 Special rounds can be expected to be on the order of 8 to 10 inches.
HANDGUN AMMUNITION FOR
SELF DEFENSE Ammunition manufactured in the United States is among the finest in the world. For potential defensive use, the gun owner will not go wrong in selecting ammunition produced by the most widely recognized manufacturers. These include CCI/Speer, Cor-Bon, Federal, Remington, and Winchester. Munitions available at the Armory include those produced by the first three of these manufacturers. Avoid ammunition that is hand loaded, re-loaded, or of foreign manufacture when choosing defensive rounds.
Bullets come in a wide variety of shapes, metals, and multi-metal composites. Bullet types commonly encountered in self-defense applications are summarized as follows:
FMJ Full Metal Jacket. The round-nosed bullet is enclosed on its top and sides in a hard metal jacket, usually consisting of an alloy of copper or occasionally mild steel. The base of the bullet is open, exposing a lead core. The bullet design is not conducive to either expansion or deformation. According to terms of the Hague Convention of 1899, and subsequently the Geneva Convention, this is the only type of bullet permitted in small arms during warfare. It is also referred to as "ball" ammunition.
JHP
Jacketed Hollow Point. The bullet is constructed of a soft lead core enclosed in a hard metal jacket. The top of the bullet has an opening in the jacket, exposing a hollow lead core. Upon impact, the bullet is forced to open up and expand. This results in less penetration, but greater tissue damage due to the larger diameter of the now expanded bullet.
LHP
Lead Hollow Point. The bullet is similar to a JHP, but is constructed completely of lead and has no jacket.
SJHP
Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point. This bullet is similar to a JHP, but the jacket does not completely cover the lead core. A small section of core at the top of the bullet is left exposed. This older bullet design is still common in the .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum calibers.
LRN
Lead Round Nose
LW
Lead Wadcutter. The bullet is flat-nosed.
Recommendations regarding handgun ammunition for self defense follow:
.22 LR (Long Rifle) Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: 21-34% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
CCI "Stinger" LHP 32 grains 34%
Federal LHP 38 grains 30%
Winchester LHP 37 grains 29%
Remington LHP 36 grains 27%
In a perfect world, the intended victim would be relying on a caliber larger than the .22 for self defense. In such a perfect world, why would one need to defend themselves in the first place? Consider the .22 to be an imperfect solution to a real world necessity, or put differently "something is better than nothing". The diminutive .22 makes sense with citizens reluctant to pack or carry a larger caliber handgun. Some fine .22 caliber pocket autoloaders exist, and 8- to 10-shot .22 caliber revolvers are extremely fun to shoot. Use .22LR ammunition only.
The recommended CCI "Stinger" will cycle reliably in the excellent Beretta 21A and Walther TPH pistols. Remington's "Yellow Jacket", 33 grain cartridge will also work well. The inexpensive Jennings J-22 pistol is more reliable when fed LRN standard velocity ammunition. Consider Winchester LRN, 40 grains, even though the one shot stopping success of this round is only 21%.
In a revolver, consider using Remington's "Viper" cartridge, which features a non-expanding truncated nose bullet.
Because ammunition is cheap, there exists no excuse for not developing required shooting skills. Marksmanship is crucial with a .22 in a defensive situation, so practice drawing your firearm and rapidly peppering objects from ten to twenty-five feet away. Cans, melons, and discarded bowling pins make ideal targets. Bowling pins used to be free, but now a nominal cost is usually involved to obtain them.
The .22 autoloader must be kept free of gunk, dust, and grit to function reliably. Make sure to keep the firearm meticulously clean and properly lubricated. Replace unused .22 ammunition in the magazine at least every six months or so because it tends to misfire when subjected to temperature and weather extremes over a period of time.
.22 Magnum Caliber: (.22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire; WMR)
One Shot Stopping Success: 40 -42 % (Theoretical)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester JHP 40 grains
CCI +P JHP 30 grains
Ruger makes a fine single action revolver capable of shooting both the .22 LR and .22 Magnum cartridges. This is accomplished by means of interchangeable cylinders, each intended to accommodate the differing length cartridges. The barrel of the gun is suited to either caliber since they are both .22.
.25 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: 22-25% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester "XP"
JHP 45 grains 25%
Winchester FMJ 50 grains 23%
Federal FMJ 50 grains 22%
Remington FMJ 50 grains 22%
Try the JHP round to see if it functions reliably in your auto- loading pistol. The rule of thumb is to shoot 200 rounds without a jam as the test of reliability. The JHP reportedly works well in Beretta 950 and 21A .25 caliber pistols. The Walther TPH in .25 caliber should be loaded with FMJ.
The .25 ACP cartridge was developed as an alternative to the .22 LR for use in autoloading pistols. The former, a center-fired cartridge, provides a degree of dependability not found in the .22 LR, which is a rim-fired cartridge. Which of these calibers of autoloading pistol should an individual consider purchasing for self-defense? Neither. Buy a .22 LR autoloader for fun because ammunition is inexpensive and the firearm will likely experience considerable use as a plinker. For self defense, consider the .32 ACP to be the minimum acceptable caliber when deep concealment is an issue.
.32 ACP Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: 50-63% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester "Silvertip" JHP 60 grains 63%
Winchester FMJ 71 grains 50%
The Beretta .32 ACP "Tomcat", loaded with Winchester "Silvertip", 60 grains, is certainly a viable defensive concealable handgun. It is enjoyable to shoot, a feature that encourages practice and, hence, proper shot placement during any potential encounter with a violent aggressor. Penetration can be expected to be in the range of 6 to 8 inches.
Most of the common .32 ACP autoloaders on the market are only reliable with FMJ. These include Llama, Walther PP and PPK, Czech CZ-24 and CZ-70, Davis P-32, and Colt Pocket Model, among others.
.32 Smith & Wesson Long Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridge:
Federal LW 98 grains
This is an obsolete revolver caliber.
.380 ACP Caliber: (9 mm Short, 9 x 17 mm, 9 mm Kurz)
One Shot Stopping Success: 51-70% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Cor-Bon +P JHP 90 grains 70%
Federal "Hydra-Shok" JHP 90 grains 69%
Federal JHP 90 grains 69%
Winchester "Silvertip" JHP 85grains 61%
CCI JHP 88grains 58%
Remington JHP 88 grains 57%
The .380 ACP, or "three eighty auto", represents a higher level of self-protection insurance when compared to smaller calibers, with penetration ranging from 8 to 10 inches. In fact, the top three recommended .380 ACP cartridges outperform the larger .38 Special when the latter is fired from a 2-inch snub nose revolver. The "snubby" has a long history as a favorite concealment firearm of the law enforcement community.
The Cor-Bon +P, JHP is the most powerful .380 ACP round. The Federal "Hydra-Shok" is the best standard pressure .380 ACP round. These cartridges will feed reliably in the SIG/Sauer P230, Beretta 84/85, Browning BDA, Czech CZ-83, H&K P7K3, and Walther PPK and PPK/s.
Makarov pistols of Russian, East German, Chinese, and Bulgarian manufacture will stand up to the potent Cor-Bon cartridge due to their all steel construction. The round feeds reliably in these guns. The Colt .380 ACP also performs well with the Cor-Bon round.
The Remington JHP, 88 grains, is the most reliable feeding cartridge due to the rounded shape of the bullet. In the last decade, it was redesigned to provide deeper penetration. Positive feeding can be expected in Colt Government Model .380, H&K HK4, Taurus PT-58, older Walther PP and PPK, Bersa .380, Beretta 70's, Makarov and Hungarian FEG.
A number of rounds recommended because of their proven ability to produce one shot stops may not feed reliably in some makes of handguns. The Winchester Silvertip, JHP, works well in modern SIG/Sauers and Berettas of European design, but will tend to jam in handguns of American design. Russian .380 Makarovs and the Walther PPK series handguns are also jam prone as well with this cartridge.
The truncated cone bullet nose profile of the Federal JHP, 90 grains, also may not be conducive to reliable feeding in many .380 autoloaders.
Stick to the top two recommended cartridges, Cor-Bon +P and Federal "Hydra-Shok". If the firearm is subject to jamming with these rounds, switch to the Remington JHP.
Federal FMJ, 95 grains, has a 51% one shot stopping success. This cartridge is well suited for use in the Davis P-380, Accu-Tek, EAA -380, Tanarmi, AMT/OMC/TDE "Backup", Heritage, FIE, Jennings, Bryco, Lorcin, Llama, and other low-priced handguns. The JHP ammunition should never be considered for use in these firearms.
9 mm Makarov Caliber: (9 x 18 mm)
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridge:
Cor-Bon JHP 95 grains
Cor-Bon manufactures the only JHP on the market for this caliber. It is totally reliable in all East-Bloc pistols.
.38 Special Caliber: 2-inch Barrel
One Shot Stopping Success: 49-67% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Winchester +P LHP 158 grains 67%
Federal +P LHP 158 grains 66%
Federal +P JHP 125 grains 65%
Remington +P LHP 158 grains 65%
CCI +P JHP 125 grains 64%
Ammunition labeled +P (for extra pressure) should be used only in steel framed revolvers approved by the manufacturer for such use. Ultra high pressure loads, such as the Cor-Bon +P+, JHP, 115 grains, should be used only in extremely sturdy revolvers such as the Ruger SP101.
Standard pressure (non +P) rounds are suited for use in aluminum frame snub nose revolvers such as the Smith & Wesson Model 38 Bodyguard, 642, 442, 37, or Colt Cobra. Firing a few (less than 100) rounds of +P ammunition probably won't ruin the gun, but extended use of +P cartridges will cause some damage. Accuracy with a light weight snubby is extremely susceptible to the unpleasant blast and kick produced by +P ammunition. The gun is much more controllable in rapid fire with standard pressure rounds. Acceptable ammunition includes the Federal "Nyclad", LHP, 125 grains, which was designed to expand at lower velocities, and the Winchester "Silvertip", JHP, 110 grains.
The ability to control a snub nose revolver is greatly improved by the addition of after market rubber grips to replace the wooden factory grips.
.38 Special Caliber: 4-inch Barrel
One Shot Stopping Success: 51-83 % (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Cor-Bon +P+ JHP 115 grains 83%
Winchester +P LHP 158 grains 78%
Federal +P LHP 158 grains 77%
Federal +P JHP 125 grains 73%
Remington +P SJHP 125 grains 73%
Winchester +P+ JHP 110 grains 71%
CCI +P JHP 125 grains 70%
Remington +P LHP 158 grains 69%
Surprising, the very high pressure Cor-Bon produces less felt recoil and muzzle flip when compared to the second-ranked recommended cartridge. However, it should be used only in modern 6-shot revolvers.
The 158 grain recommendations are known as the "FBI" or "Chicago" loads. They are proven manstoppers, about on par with .45 caliber ball. All fixed sight .38 Special revolvers are regulated at the factory to shoot point-of-aim with this load. Lighter grained bullets will tend to shoot lower.
For practice, it is economical to shoot CCI JHP, 158 grains, in the inexpensive aluminum-cased "Blazer" line. This round duplicates the ballistics and recoil of the FBI load without fouling the handgun barrel with lead deposits, which are extremely difficult to remove during cleaning.
The admonition concerning +P ammunition is again reiterated: restrict the use of +P loads to steel framed .38 Special revolvers only. Use standard pressure loads in aluminum-framed revolvers. Shooting less than 50 rounds of +P ammunition in an aluminum framed revolver probably won't hurt it. Shooting more than 100 probably will. Why not practice with standard pressure loads, and carry +P ammunition in an aluminum frame revolver when packing it for self-defense? The kick of a +P round is severe, and inhibits accurate repeat shots. With standard pressure ammunition, proper shot placement and rapid delivery of subsequent hits is enhanced. The best standard pressure .38 Special load is the Federal "Nyclad", LHP, 125 grains. This round is known as the "Chief's Special" load. The Winchester "Silvertip", JHP, 110 grains, is another acceptable standard pressure .38 Special cartridge.
Penetration of .38 Special rounds can be expected to be on the order of 8 to 10 inches.
HUH?
