JohnnyFlake
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With all things equal, barrel length, etc. Is there any real, positive advantage, of the .38 Super over the 9mm, or vice versa?
.38 Super vs 9mm
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Rock185
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Discussions of this all over the place on firearms forums. I've had several of both, reloaded for and chronographed both for a long time. The advantage of the 9 is that it is the most popular centerfire pistol cartridge on the planet, available most everywhere, cheaper than the Super and having the benefit of the latest bullet technology. The Super not so much. Takes smaller manufacturer "Boutique" ammo and/or reloading to realize the Super's ballistic advantage over much of the factory 9MM ammo available. I still enjoy both calibers. BTW, most references will show 9MM ballistics from 4" barrels, 38 Super from 5" barrels. It does make a difference. In the same length barrels, the advantage does not always go to the Super.......
Gratuitous photo of 9MM and Super 38s attached
Gratuitous photo of 9MM and Super 38s attached
OP
OP
JohnnyFlake
Member
Yes, thank you!
Good things about .38 super:
1. Cartridge length. A .38 super is a "long" autopistol cartridge, like .45 ACP or 10mm. In some guns designed around a "long" cartridge, the .38 super will be easier to make run reliably.
2. More room for powder. For those interested in exploring the upper end of performance (such as USPSA/IPSC open shooters), the extra case capacity makes it easier to achieve really high velocities while staying at non-stratospheric pressures. Or allows a slightly wider range of powders to make certain high velocities.
3. When pushed to very high velocities, particularly in a gun with a compensator, the .38 is often experienced as being less harsh in recoil than super hot 9mm.
4. The extra cartridge space (and perhaps the lower likelihood of using brass that's already been shot 10 times) may make it less prone to setback-fueled (or cartridge fatigue-fueled) kabooms.
Drawbacks to .38 super:
1. Cartridge length. It won't fit in some platforms and/or demands a deeper grip than a 9mm/.40-length cartridge.
2. Ammo is expensive. 38 super is really for handloaders or low-volume shooters.
3. Brass is expensive/hard to come by. 9mm brass is available for literally ZERO dollars at many ranges... just pick it up. You won't find much free ground brass in .38 super. And new brass will be slightly more expensive.
4. True .38 super is semi-rimmed, which can cause jams in double-stack mags. This can be solved by switching to 38 TJ or 38 supercomp, which are rimless, but that means a new extractor (or at least retuning the old one) and having to keep that specific subset of brass on hand.
In total, if you're running a 2011 (long cartridge format) race gun (compensator) in a gun game with required power factors (need to run hard to make power factor with small bullets), the case for a .38 super is reasonably strong.
Otherwise, the pragmatic case for it isn't that good. Another 50-100 fps maybe?
1. Cartridge length. A .38 super is a "long" autopistol cartridge, like .45 ACP or 10mm. In some guns designed around a "long" cartridge, the .38 super will be easier to make run reliably.
2. More room for powder. For those interested in exploring the upper end of performance (such as USPSA/IPSC open shooters), the extra case capacity makes it easier to achieve really high velocities while staying at non-stratospheric pressures. Or allows a slightly wider range of powders to make certain high velocities.
3. When pushed to very high velocities, particularly in a gun with a compensator, the .38 is often experienced as being less harsh in recoil than super hot 9mm.
4. The extra cartridge space (and perhaps the lower likelihood of using brass that's already been shot 10 times) may make it less prone to setback-fueled (or cartridge fatigue-fueled) kabooms.
Drawbacks to .38 super:
1. Cartridge length. It won't fit in some platforms and/or demands a deeper grip than a 9mm/.40-length cartridge.
2. Ammo is expensive. 38 super is really for handloaders or low-volume shooters.
3. Brass is expensive/hard to come by. 9mm brass is available for literally ZERO dollars at many ranges... just pick it up. You won't find much free ground brass in .38 super. And new brass will be slightly more expensive.
4. True .38 super is semi-rimmed, which can cause jams in double-stack mags. This can be solved by switching to 38 TJ or 38 supercomp, which are rimless, but that means a new extractor (or at least retuning the old one) and having to keep that specific subset of brass on hand.
In total, if you're running a 2011 (long cartridge format) race gun (compensator) in a gun game with required power factors (need to run hard to make power factor with small bullets), the case for a .38 super is reasonably strong.
Otherwise, the pragmatic case for it isn't that good. Another 50-100 fps maybe?
9mm is a remarkably feed reliable and efficient cartridge. .38 Super, 9x23 and .357 Sig all offer more power, but you have to pay for it because of either cartridge length or diameter.
As said, 9mm benefits from being more popular, so the JHP designs are optimized for 9mm velocities. You might squeeze some advantage for certain specific uses with the right bullet selection.
Which is lame. If there are .357 Mag performance to be had in an auto, there ought to be bullets to work with it. But premium bullets are expensive to design and test, so they are only going to be found in common cop calibers.
And being an auto cartridge, .38 Super isn't going to be able to feed the kind of bullets that .357 Mag revolvers can take advantage of.
I think some of these high velocity rounds like 9x23, 10mm, .45 Super etc are pretty interesting, but actually finding a load that effectively does something better is a real chore.
As said, 9mm benefits from being more popular, so the JHP designs are optimized for 9mm velocities. You might squeeze some advantage for certain specific uses with the right bullet selection.
Which is lame. If there are .357 Mag performance to be had in an auto, there ought to be bullets to work with it. But premium bullets are expensive to design and test, so they are only going to be found in common cop calibers.
And being an auto cartridge, .38 Super isn't going to be able to feed the kind of bullets that .357 Mag revolvers can take advantage of.
I think some of these high velocity rounds like 9x23, 10mm, .45 Super etc are pretty interesting, but actually finding a load that effectively does something better is a real chore.
Deanimator
Member
Yes.
You can throw a heavier bullet faster at a lower chamber pressure with a .38 Super than with a 9x19mm.
highlander 5
Member
I've a,9x23 1911 and I find the recoil not much worse than the standard 9x19. Granted the ammo is a bit scarce but if factory specs are true 125 gr at 1450 fps ain't to shabby. Plus being rimless helps as well.
If you reload the .38 Super can do anything the 9MM can do at lower pressure, or beat it at the same pressure.
Is it enough to buy a .38 Super over a 9MM? Only you can say.
I have a .38 Super that I load ammo a bit hot for. I have one I only shoot normal pressure loads in, and I have a 9MM barrel for it as well, which I shoot a lot.
Not much .38 Super brass laying around at the range, while there is a lot of 9MM brass laying around to be had for free. If I could only have one, or if I was only able to buy one right now and another some time later, I would get a 9MM.
I'll never get rid of my Springfield 1911 in .38 Super.
Is it enough to buy a .38 Super over a 9MM? Only you can say.
I have a .38 Super that I load ammo a bit hot for. I have one I only shoot normal pressure loads in, and I have a 9MM barrel for it as well, which I shoot a lot.
Not much .38 Super brass laying around at the range, while there is a lot of 9MM brass laying around to be had for free. If I could only have one, or if I was only able to buy one right now and another some time later, I would get a 9MM.
I'll never get rid of my Springfield 1911 in .38 Super.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I'm not sure if this means anything or not but Les Baer, owner of Les Baer Custom who can carry any gun he wants carries a 1911 in .38 Super. I'm just sayin...
The .38 ACP (the original version of the .38 Super) came about because Browning couldn't figure out how to support a rimless round, so he kept the rim but made it as small as possible. Luger, having the same basic problem, supported his case on its mouth, allowing for a rimless (grooved) case. But Luger made his case tapered, causing all kinds of troubles later on, especially for SMG's. Had the two gotten together, things could have been different.
Jim
Jim
bannockburn
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JohnnyFlake
Why not have them both? It's easy to convert a 1911 in .38 Super to 9mm. with the addition of a 9mm. barrel assembly and magazines. I have done it with nearly all of my .38 Supers and the 9mm. conversion works perfectly and saves me money by using less expensive ammo at the range. My current set-up is a Colt Lightweight Commander in .38 Super with a Storm Lake 9mm. barrel assembly and Colt 9mm. magazines.
Why not have them both? It's easy to convert a 1911 in .38 Super to 9mm. with the addition of a 9mm. barrel assembly and magazines. I have done it with nearly all of my .38 Supers and the 9mm. conversion works perfectly and saves me money by using less expensive ammo at the range. My current set-up is a Colt Lightweight Commander in .38 Super with a Storm Lake 9mm. barrel assembly and Colt 9mm. magazines.
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The Israeli Security in Italy, at Consulates, or at Rome Airport, could not carry 9mm pistols, it was a Military caliber, forbidden for non Military.
So they had .380, to their detriment! In asking one of these Chaps why not go to .38 Super? He just looked blank, had never heard of it.
So they had .380, to their detriment! In asking one of these Chaps why not go to .38 Super? He just looked blank, had never heard of it.
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JohnnyFlake
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bannockburn
That's an interesting scenario, but I already have several 9mm semi autos, however, I do not have one in a 1911 format. So, that may become a consideration.
That's an interesting scenario, but I already have several 9mm semi autos, however, I do not have one in a 1911 format. So, that may become a consideration.
bannockburn
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JohnnyFlake
I have found it to be a relatively inexpensive way to go in terms of using less expensive 9mm. ammo while getting more practice time in at the range with my .38 Super.
Currently MidwayUSA, for a Commander, has an Ed Brown semi-drop-in barrel with bushing for $179.99, a Bar-Sto semi-drop-in for $230.99 and a Nowlin semi-drop-in for $249.99. All three manufacturers make a first rate barrel.
I have found it to be a relatively inexpensive way to go in terms of using less expensive 9mm. ammo while getting more practice time in at the range with my .38 Super.
Currently MidwayUSA, for a Commander, has an Ed Brown semi-drop-in barrel with bushing for $179.99, a Bar-Sto semi-drop-in for $230.99 and a Nowlin semi-drop-in for $249.99. All three manufacturers make a first rate barrel.
RainDodger
Member
I have examples of both 9mm and .38 Super. Both have their strong points... but I really, REALLY like my .38 Super. As a hand loader, I find the .38 Super to be very versatile. Hot loads can be really hot... I've experimented with light 90 grain loads nearing 1500 FPS (fun), as well as heavier bullets of course. Yep, the brass can be expensive, but apart from that it's no different than loading for other calibers. I often carry my Kimber Pro Carry .38 Super. Bought in 2007 and used often at the range, it has never, ever, failed to function.
Not sure what you mean by, "all things being equal", but I find the .38 Super to be a joy to own and shoot, and if you're a hand loader, it's incredibly versatile. I guess it depends on what you want to do with it. If you want to be able to buy loaded ammo at the store, get a 9mm. Besides, I've found most retail .38 Super ammo to be not much different than 9mm unless you're talking specialty loads like CorBon, etc. If you're a hand loader... the .38 Super will do it all a little better. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
Not sure what you mean by, "all things being equal", but I find the .38 Super to be a joy to own and shoot, and if you're a hand loader, it's incredibly versatile. I guess it depends on what you want to do with it. If you want to be able to buy loaded ammo at the store, get a 9mm. Besides, I've found most retail .38 Super ammo to be not much different than 9mm unless you're talking specialty loads like CorBon, etc. If you're a hand loader... the .38 Super will do it all a little better. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
FL-NC
Member
38 super has more power. And there the advantages end.
Deanimator
Member
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I have an older, early 1980s vintage Colt, "head space on the rim" M1911 38 Super barrel that feeds and shoots 38 cal, 158 grain SWC bullets just fine with great accuracy.
But, the accuracy is not so great with standard 38 Super style projectiles.
Also, the SWC rounds will not chamber in a more modern barrel that head spaces on the case mouth.
In my opinion, the only advantage of the 9x19 over the 38 Super is the availability of ammunition. Which provides for a greater selection of firearms.
Otherwise, it is in the 38 Super's favor.
HisSoldier
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The 38 Super is more of a reloader's cartridge, and it really is easier to reload than the 9MM.
Acera
Member
.38 supers got real popular in the 80's when you could get major power ratings with them. The 9mm could not and so you were handicapped with them in the formative years of the action pistol sports.
They always seemed to be a nicer shooting gun compared to the others in the same power ranges.
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They always seemed to be a nicer shooting gun compared to the others in the same power ranges.
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