380 acp ammo ( search gave me nothing )

[ByAnyMeans]

Forgive me for the long post but I'm set on a .380 (LCP) and have done a lot of research but now i'm stuck. I read the FBI report on handgun effectiveness and based on this I have concluded that with the current HP loads the only way to ensure 12 inches or more of penetration is with FMJ. I am aware of DPX loads and Buffalo Bore but with ammo tests I have seen 12 inches is not reliably achieved and the BB hard cast often broke up.(KTOG .380 test link) I feel since the LCP will be an "always have" gun then it must be able to reach the 12in standard so no matter the situation is it remains a viable option.

I do like the thought of the flat nose bullet as a way to minimize the "straight slip through" that is often said to be the problem with round nose FMJ loads. I have found two possible with the Remington UMC flat nose and the Winchester flat nose. I'm leaning towards the Winchester because it's chronographed at 955 (iirc) compared to 870 (iirc) for the Remington.

Now finally comes to my question, should I be concerned that although the Winchester is a 95 gr fmj flat nose pushing 955 fps it's marketed as target/ range ammunition and not personal protection. It may sound very stupid but no matter how much I knew and have learned since really getting heavy into guns there is always more that I have questions about. It's just how my mind works, question everything till you have no questions left.

Please comment on any of my thoughts and explain where I went wrong in my logic and thanks in advance, you guys on this forum and a distinct other few have helped me expand my firearms knowledge.

 

[MedWheeler]

I'm curious where this thread goes, too. I keep Remington UMC JSPs in mine, which are, I think, 88 grains. I also have a box of 85gr Winchester JHPs. Other than a FMJ (or LRN), I really don't think one can bank on a foot of penetration in this caliber, but a well-placed shot won't require it. Remember that, in the case of one shot not dropping a BG, pulling the trigger again is an option still on the table..!

 

[MICHAEL T]

I use DPX in my Kel Tec and other 380's Long before the 12": 10 was fine and before that 7 or 8 was good. You 380 LCP will be close and personal DPX I belive will work If you pistol feeds the relieabilty If not use the Corbon 90 gr HP

 

[ByAnyMeans]

Thanks for the answers guys but i'm set on trying to get 12 in of penetration before considering expansion. I really just want to know if the Winchester FMJ flat nose is "different" in a way that makes it unsuitable for self defense. It confuses me that they tag it as target/range ammunition instead of personal protection.

 

[legion3]

Best non HP ammo for the 380, super hot, its a JSP but has a similar flat nose to winchester. If you can find it.

I stagger my mags with this and Remington golden saber

 

[Ol` Joe]

http://stevespages.com/page8f380acp.html

The Berreta and Kel-Tek P380aT are both represented here.

 

[tblt]

I will be shooting federal Hydra shoks in my LCP when I get it.Even with 8-10- inches of penitration, if I shoot someone in the chest I will go thru most of a body plenty good for me.I will only get 4 inches of penetration with my knife and that will get to your heart.That said I don't want 12 you are more likly to hit someone behind the BG.Don't get me wrong i WOULD RATHER USE MY 9 OR 357 BUT THE 380 WILL BE good enough.

 

[ByAnyMeans]

legion3 : I'm gonna try for Santa Barbara but I was not aware any was still available, any known locations to get some?


Ol' Joe: The results are good especially for the Corbon 90gr hp but that is out of a barrel more than an inch longer than the LCP. This must affect penetration enough because the most test result I could find had it at 10 to 11 inches and this was through ideal conditions.

 

[jocko]

If you go to the Ruger fourm, there is a really good report done by "gatorhugger" on the 380 rounds, with photos, shot in beef not gelatin or phone books. I think we might be suprised at his findings

look under the thread marked 380 heavyweights.

 

[presspuller]

There is also a lot of info on the KTOG site. Pretty informative.

 

[Ivy Mike]

tblt, the 12" of penetration you're talking about refers to ballistic gelatin, not an actual body. The 12" requirement is mainly a way of approximating the level of force needed to cause enough damage to a person to stop them. 12" is deeper than the torso of an average man but the average man has things like bones in the way.

 

[EHL]

I'm with the majority of the guys on this. 12 inches is the ideal, but that doesn't mean that anything that doesn't penetrate to 12 inches won't be effective. In the unlikely event that any of us civies have to use a firearm to defend ourselves on the street, our objective should be to stop the attack enough to get away from danger and alert the authorities. I know if I shot a BG, I wouldn't stick around to offer him a questioneer about whether or not the first shot was enough to drop him, or if it was the second one that did it. For street situations, I believe a .380 is more than enough gun to handle a threat or a even a few threats given enough bullets and proper shot placement. I load my .380's (three of them) with DPX and Ranger T's. Both work fanastic in these small calibers. At home and whenever my dress will let me get away with it, I carry a 45 acp 1911 Government (home) and Officer's (concealed carry) in a IWB and shoulder holster. Of course I prefer the larger caliber, but a .380 fills the niche of a street gun that conceals very well quite nicely.

 

[legion3]

If you go to the Ruger fourm, there is a really good report done by "gatorhugger" on the 380 rounds, with photos, shot in beef not gelatin or phone books. I think we might be suprised at his findings

look under the thread marked 380 heavyweights.

A very interesting test, shows what I feel is that the DPX feels weak when fired. I picked up a box of Corbon PP which I will test. My LCP has fired all sorts of HP's with no issues including the DPX.

The fellows over at Stoppingpower.net feel the DPX is king in any caliber, maybe, but compared with the other 380's I have fired the DPX seems to be a lightweight in ommphf.

The Santa Barbara comes up for sale now and then but in general its supply has dried up.

 

[The_Sheriff]

I like the Hornady .380's from cabelas.com

- The_Sheriff

 

[enfield]

I carried range ammo (FMJ) in my NAA Guardian until I had a round of CCI Blazer disassemble itself in the spare mag in my pocket.

I now carry Remington Express FMJ. It's hard to find on the shelf -- I ordered mine from Midway.

I don't have any data or opinion on whether a flat meplat bullet would be superior to RN. Premium .380 ammo choices are VERY limited.

 

[ByAnyMeans]

Thanks for all the replies, guess I have more reading to do.

 

[klane]

My LCP really likes the 102 gr. Remington Golden Sabor's. Hundreds shot to point of aim and never has the LCP not feed one...come to think if it, it has never failed to feed/extract anything I have feed it to date! I am really happy with the gun/round combo for use in it's intended role.

 

[Flopsy]

I agree on the Golden Sabers. I've read lots of write ups and it always has a consistent high performance with good expansion.

Most important for any ammo, I've never had Golden Sabers malfunction in any weapon I've ever shot, ever.

 

[jocko]

klane: IMO that is the MOST important thing to. It works perfect in ur weapon. Its also a good round to. just ask "gatorhugger"...

 

[kokapelli]

A year or so ago someone chronograph and gelatin tested some Santa Barbara ammo. It was all over the board in velocity and penetration in gelatin was like any other non expanding round.

If you find any Santa Barbara it is all very old and you should expect very erratic performance from it.

I shot 28 rounds of Santa Barbara through my P-3AT this morning at the range and practice is the only thing I would consider Santa Barbara for.

 

[jocko]

other than going bang most all the time,and beng very low in price. I seem to remember the velocities of the santa barbara ammo all over the chart. Sure would not be myccw round.

 

[19-3Ben]

I carry S&B FMJ's in my LCP. I also wanted penetration. I feel like a flat nose vs. round nose is probably going to make SO little difference that it's irrelevant.

 

[kokapelli]

Before you trust Sellier & Bellot for self defense, I'd make sure it's reliable in your pistol.
I've had a number of misfires with it in my P-3ATs.

I may just be my specific pistols, but I've heard Sellier & Bellot uses hard primers that are unreliable in some pistols.

 

[rcmodel]

Santa Barbara Ammo Dissection

Well, I finally found some SB-T ammo for sale at a little Gun Show. Decided to buy a box and see what’s up with the very wide velocity variations reported some time ago.

Paid $3.25 for a 25 round box. The box is marked March 1983, and the cartridge head-stamps are SB-T 9C 82. Primers are sealed with Green lacquer. Cases show light corrosion beginning to form.

I weighed all 25 rounds and found the average weight to be 140.3 grains, with a low of 138.6, and a high of 141.5.

Cartridge overall length averaged .9556”, with a low of .944”, and a high of .966”. This is a huge difference (.020”) in OAL, and it appears reports of bullet set-back may be coming out of the box that way!

Next up, I selected the 3 lightest, 3 heaviest, and 4 mid-way in total weight, and pulled the bullets. Here are the results:
OAL Total weight Case Bullet Powder
.957” 138.6 gr. 45.4 gr. 87.7 gr. 5.4 gr.
.960” 139.3 gr. 45.8 gr. 88.0 gr. 5.4 gr.
.946” 139.8 gr. 46.2 gr. 88.2 gr. 5.5 gr.
.949” 140.0 gr. 47.5 gr. 87.1 gr. 5.3 gr.
.961” 140.1 gr. 47.3 gr. 87.5 gr. 5.4 gr.
.954” 140.4 gr. 47.1 gr. 87.8 gr. 5.3 gr.
.964” 140.4 gr. 46.3 gr. 88.6 gr. 5.4 gr.
.961” 140.7 gr. 47.6 gr. 87.7 gr. 5.5 gr.
.944” 141.2 gr. 48.1 gr. 87.6 gr. 5.3 gr.
.952” 141.6 gr. 48.0 gr. 88.1 gr. 5.3 gr.

Average:
.9548” 140.2 gr. 46.93 gr. 87.83 gr. 5.38 gr.

Difference, low - high:
.020” 2.9 gr. 2.7 gr. 1.5 gr. .02 gr.

Percent difference:
2% 2% 6% 2% 4%

Now none of this may seem too extreme, however it’s a lot more variation then you would ever find in most any other .380 ammo you care to check. For example, I weighed and measured 25 rounds of S&B ammo, and came up with a loaded cartridge weight variation of only 1.6 grains, and an OAL variation of only .004”.

Now, the odd part. While pulling the SB-T bullets with an inertia bullet pullet, I noticed some of them popped out with a light tap, and others required several hard blows. Bullets are sealed in the case with an asphalt sealer, however it appeared to be uniformly applied, and could not account for that much difference in neck tension.

Next, I measured all 10 pulled bullets and found they all measured .3535”, or 1 ½ thousandths Smaller then the established .380/9mm .355” bore size!

My observations:
1. SB-T is loaded with an average of 5.38 grains of powder. This is a very large charge, and would have be considered a relatively slow burning powder for the .380 cartridge in order to use that much. It would probably fall somewhere in the range of Alliant Herco or Blue Dot in burning rate.

2. Very doubtful you could expect to always get a complete burn in a very short barrel with powder this slow.

3. Powder appears to be changing color from gray to yellow, and may be in the early stages of decomposition. This is likely caused from improper storage at high temperature, and not from age. (Properly stored, 24 year old ammo should be as perfect as the day it was made.)

4. Case neck tension is very low, and even after resizing the cases, still was not as tight as it should have been. It is mostly dependent on the asphalt sealer to hold the bullet in place.
It could be the cause of the ammo being declared “surplus”!

5. Whether or not the under-size bullets were intentional, (to lower pressure) or by accident, is open to speculation. If it was intentional, you would assume they would have used under-sized loading dies to maintain proper case neck tension. But they didn’t!
This could also have caused it to be declared “surplus”!

6. Quality control of OAL, and weights of all components is perhaps the worst I have ever seen in over 40 years of reloading.

7. The wide velocity swings reported are probably caused by the under-size bullets allowing gas to leak past them in the bore. I feel confident some of the bullets bump up to fill the bore and get a good gas seal, and resulting high pressure & velocity, while others do not. And that results in gas leaking past the bullet, less pressure, and lower velocity on some of them.

Bottom line:
I would not carry Santa Barbara surplus ammo for SD on a bet, if I could get anything else.

rcmodel

 

[jocko]

nice report RC. sure is junk ammo from what u posted, AT ANY PRICE.