.380 face off
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krs
Member
Colt is good..
it's a hair....not a scratch
it's a hair....not a scratch
krs
Member
Colt is good...
krs
Member
OK, OK,.Sig is good too..
krs
Member
Colt is best...
Spending more for the colt is like spending more than you need to for a mercedes when you could just buy a hyundai. Yes your spending more but getting significantly more too IMO. I'm yet to find a pocket pistol I like as much as the mustang. The Sig is a nice gun, and gorgeous to look at, but if i wanted something its size I would go with a nine. Same story for the Bersa great gun but too big for a pocket pistol IMO.
I have nothing against the P3AT and think it can make a solid pocket pistol for the money but it is not close to the same class as the mustang in the following areas:
Fit and Finish: just look at both next to each other some time.
Out of the box reliability: A pistol isn't worth much when it is being sent to the manufacture. Also my mustang required no fluff and buff or break in it has run well from shot one. It didn't require filing down the mag release to avoid dropping the mag. It doesn't have a forum dedicated to fixing its factory deficiencies. The Kel tec can be a good gun but one needs to be prepaired to get it running right.
Recoil: I often hear complaints centering around the snappy recoil of small .380s. Many people don't like to shoot many rounds through them for that reason. The catch phrase seems to be they are made to be carried a lot and shot very little. The problem is that if I am potentially staking my life on something I want to be proficient with it. The mustang's locked breach results in a pistol that is very pleasant to shoot. I run out of ammo before I tire of shooting it.
Sights: The stock sights are way better on the Mustang IMO and one has the ability to add nice novak night sights which are better any I have seen for the kel tec.
This maybe a personal thing but the Mustang is much easier for me to shoot well. I think it is related to some of the above points and the fact the mustang is single action vs a long, heavy and not particularly smooth trigger pull (this can be improved upon of course but still) on the DAO kel tec.
The Kel tec is the big winner on price and availability. If one is not constrained by price they can buy a better weapon. The kel tec is a serviceable weapon once it is made to be or proven reliable but to pretend one is not getting more with other some other more expensive guns is silly.
I am interested to see what the Khar .380 is like when it comes out. The high prices of the mustang and limited availability may make it the best choice of the lot if it proves a solid preformer.
I have owned both and both are fine .380's. I still own the Sig though mine is the 230. I prefer the Sig but if I was planning on my wife carrying I might go with the Beretta becasue of the safety. As far as accuracy and function it would be hard to pick one over the other.
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gglass
Member
I never cease to be amazed at the small-minded opinions of small caliber weapons. I realize that opinions are like a## holes and everyone has one, but caliber size as always means less than placement.
.380 Performance:
James Bond never seemed to have a problem.
Seriously... The .380 cal round is also known as the 9mm short. It is a 9 x 17mm round as compared to the popular 9 x 19mm luger round. It has an average muzzle velocity of around 950 fps compared to the average 9mm lugar's 1050 fps.
In FBI ballistics testing .380 acp rounds penetrated bare ballistic gelatin to an average of 12.5 inches and clothed gelatin to an average of 14 inches. The average expansion of most tested JHP hollow points was .48 inch.
Lethal? According to FBI accepted minimums for stopping force the .380 ACP is well within department ballistic standards. Many European LE departments still issue .380 sidearms as standard issue, and many US LEO's use .380's as their BUGs.
With good shot placement, the .380 acp JHP round can be as effective as a .45 acp round. The only magic bullet is a hit to the Central Nervous System and this can be achieved with almost any caliber including the lowly .22 LR.
This is a very current LEO's encounter with a perp that took 17 Center mass hits with a .40 caliber Glock, but none hit the CNS sweet spot. http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-...ssionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949pital
The moral of my rant: Learn to shoot well, and practice pressure drills... Even as a civilian.
Tested ammunition:
* .380 ACP 85 grain Winchester Silvertip JHP
* .380 ACP 88 grain CCI/Speer JHP
* .380 ACP 90 grain CCI/Speer Gold Dot JHP
* .380 ACP 90 grain Federal HydraShok JHP
.380 Performance:
James Bond never seemed to have a problem.
Seriously... The .380 cal round is also known as the 9mm short. It is a 9 x 17mm round as compared to the popular 9 x 19mm luger round. It has an average muzzle velocity of around 950 fps compared to the average 9mm lugar's 1050 fps.
In FBI ballistics testing .380 acp rounds penetrated bare ballistic gelatin to an average of 12.5 inches and clothed gelatin to an average of 14 inches. The average expansion of most tested JHP hollow points was .48 inch.
Lethal? According to FBI accepted minimums for stopping force the .380 ACP is well within department ballistic standards. Many European LE departments still issue .380 sidearms as standard issue, and many US LEO's use .380's as their BUGs.
With good shot placement, the .380 acp JHP round can be as effective as a .45 acp round. The only magic bullet is a hit to the Central Nervous System and this can be achieved with almost any caliber including the lowly .22 LR.
This is a very current LEO's encounter with a perp that took 17 Center mass hits with a .40 caliber Glock, but none hit the CNS sweet spot. http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-...ssionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949pital
The moral of my rant: Learn to shoot well, and practice pressure drills... Even as a civilian.
Tested ammunition:
* .380 ACP 85 grain Winchester Silvertip JHP
* .380 ACP 88 grain CCI/Speer JHP
* .380 ACP 90 grain CCI/Speer Gold Dot JHP
* .380 ACP 90 grain Federal HydraShok JHP
Carbon_15
Member
just to put this thing back on track. This gun will be 99.9% range toy. I have a J-frame with a crimson trace for pocket carry. If, and thats a big if, I can ever talk my wife into getting her permit she would carry it in her purse.
Dirty Bob
Member
Can't argue against the SIG if price is not a problem. They seem to be among the best of the .380s.
I have to mention an alternative, though: the Makarov.
If you happen across a .380 Makarov, you might give it a serious look. You could also convert a 9x18mm Makarov to .380 with nothing but a barrel change. My Russian .380 is 100% reliable, very accurate, and feels good in the hand. It's all steel, and about 26oz., but that means mild recoil, and it carries well in a G-Code paddle holster with a good gunbelt. Double action trigger is not that great, but it's still a very shootable pistol. Mine is permanently part of my arsenal and was on my hip today, with a spare 8-round mag in a leather Schrade knife pouch on the opposite hip.
Regards,
Dirty Bob
I have to mention an alternative, though: the Makarov.
If you happen across a .380 Makarov, you might give it a serious look. You could also convert a 9x18mm Makarov to .380 with nothing but a barrel change. My Russian .380 is 100% reliable, very accurate, and feels good in the hand. It's all steel, and about 26oz., but that means mild recoil, and it carries well in a G-Code paddle holster with a good gunbelt. Double action trigger is not that great, but it's still a very shootable pistol. Mine is permanently part of my arsenal and was on my hip today, with a spare 8-round mag in a leather Schrade knife pouch on the opposite hip.
Regards,
Dirty Bob
rwschill
member
Sig P232
I owned a Sig 232 and found it was very accurate. However I did not like the bottom of grip mag release and the recoil was near 9MM pistols I have due to the blowback design of the Sig. It held 6 or 7 rounds. High quality pistol but I sold mine and got a Glock 26 9MM. Similar size, more power, 10 rounds, regular mag release and also accurate and reliaible. In 380 the pt380 Keltec or Ruger LCP are easier to pocket carry with similar firepower and lower priced but slightly higher recoil compared to Sig 232. Just my opinion after owning all of the above mentioned pistols.
Good luck!
I owned a Sig 232 and found it was very accurate. However I did not like the bottom of grip mag release and the recoil was near 9MM pistols I have due to the blowback design of the Sig. It held 6 or 7 rounds. High quality pistol but I sold mine and got a Glock 26 9MM. Similar size, more power, 10 rounds, regular mag release and also accurate and reliaible. In 380 the pt380 Keltec or Ruger LCP are easier to pocket carry with similar firepower and lower priced but slightly higher recoil compared to Sig 232. Just my opinion after owning all of the above mentioned pistols.
Good luck!
I own and carry a Beretta 86, the tilt-barrel version of that gun. It is quality, and it is accurate. My wife likes it alot. I do not think you could go wrong with it. I'll also state my wife does NOT like my LCP. Even with powder-puff loads, it's too much for her to handle. (I like it, fine!) You are not really "undergunned" with the Golden Saber 102 grain round.
I have a sig p232 and I really like it. I have about 250 rds through it, never a problem. The trigger is nice, single action is excellent, it has a decocker which I prefer. It holds 7+1. The recoil is more than you'd expect, but I installed a houge grip which helps. I also like the Browning BDA and the Bersa 380 hi cap version since they have double stack mags. The glock 26 is nice for a step up in power.
usp9
Member
In that case, I'd definitely recommend the Beretta 84. The larger grip and larger mag capacity will be much more enjoyable as a range gun. I'd also recommend the excellent Pachmyer Signature rubber grip to go with the Beretta 84...makes for a tight, sure grip and eases the recoil a bit. The Beretta Mags are cheaper too, especially the 10 rounder, which can be had for around $10.
If you decide on the Sig, then I recommend the heavier all stainless model, which is nicer to shoot than the lightweight alloy models.
Either gun is a good choice...good luck, be safe.
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Gordon
Member
Although the old Remingtons were flatter and kick less as they have locked breeches, this is my favorite .380 by a longshot:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Browning_Model_1955.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Browning_Model_1955.jpg
Quote:
or teaching the shooter to not limpwrist.
Until you stated this, was much in agreement with your opinion...
______________________
I get angry whenever I hear "limp wrist" too. It's always an excuse used for automatics that jam, and I don't want to hear about it. What kind of grip do you think you'll have on your gun in an emergency situation, maybe a hand to hand struggle? It might not be a classic weaver stance.
or teaching the shooter to not limpwrist.
Until you stated this, was much in agreement with your opinion...
______________________
I get angry whenever I hear "limp wrist" too. It's always an excuse used for automatics that jam, and I don't want to hear about it. What kind of grip do you think you'll have on your gun in an emergency situation, maybe a hand to hand struggle? It might not be a classic weaver stance.
unisonic12
member
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2008
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+1 on the newer P3ATs. I just received a brand new 2nd generation P3AT this past November which replaced (for free!) my very old and unreliable 1st generation one (GREAT Kel-Tec customer sevirce). I did nothing to it other than clean and lube it out of the box and shot the CRAP out of it (300+ rounds of WWB, S&B and 2 brands of hollow points) over Christmas with ZERO malfunctions. I have another older 2nd generation P3AT that took some work (fluff and buffing) to get it to run reliably, but it's a great shooter now as well. Although I never carry it, I love my Walther PPK/s that I bought used in 1994. Have NO idea how old it is or how many rounds had been through it, but it's never ever given me the slightest bit of trouble.
P3AT with Walther PPK/s.
That said, these pocket carry guns have been replaced by my WONDERFUL Kahr PM9 loaded with full house +p 9mm hollow points.
As you can see, the PM9 is considerably smaller (and lighter) than the Walther.
MP3Mogul
Member
CZ83 has a hit and miss record?
Where did you get that information from? Every and I mean "EVERY" single review I can find says it functioned 101%, and was also the most accurate .380 pistol tested... 2 inches at 25 yards from a .380... I don't call that along with no failures a hit and miss record.
Sorry, didn't mean to take it personal... but that above comment was not truthful in any shape or form.
Where did you get that information from? Every and I mean "EVERY" single review I can find says it functioned 101%, and was also the most accurate .380 pistol tested... 2 inches at 25 yards from a .380... I don't call that along with no failures a hit and miss record.
Sorry, didn't mean to take it personal... but that above comment was not truthful in any shape or form.
Size and firepower
The SIG 232 is smaller and lighter (if you go for the aluminum framed model) and a hammer dropping safety (a big plus if you do not like lowering the hammer on a live round).
In his books on the SIG pistols, Massad AYOUB ranked the SIG 230 and 232 as the least reliable SIG pistols. Better than a WALTHER, but not as good as a SIG 226.
It is also slower to reload, cannot be carried with the hammer COCKED & LOCKED (may or may not be important to you) and a much smaller magazine capacity.
The BERETTA 84 has a larger magazine capacity, it at least as reliable as the SIG, if not more reliable. Has larger, handfilling grips, faster reload due to the push button magazine release and a frame mounted safety which is easier to opperate and does not drop the hammer.
The negative for the BERETTA is the size limits concealment. It is as bulky as a GLOCK 19 which is a full power 9m.m., not a .380ACP. It is heavier and you can plane rule out pocket or ankle carry.
I own both and usually carry something bigger, but my wife loves the BERETTA 84 for its mild recoil and easy controls.
Hope this helps.
Jim
The SIG 232 is smaller and lighter (if you go for the aluminum framed model) and a hammer dropping safety (a big plus if you do not like lowering the hammer on a live round).
In his books on the SIG pistols, Massad AYOUB ranked the SIG 230 and 232 as the least reliable SIG pistols. Better than a WALTHER, but not as good as a SIG 226.
It is also slower to reload, cannot be carried with the hammer COCKED & LOCKED (may or may not be important to you) and a much smaller magazine capacity.
The BERETTA 84 has a larger magazine capacity, it at least as reliable as the SIG, if not more reliable. Has larger, handfilling grips, faster reload due to the push button magazine release and a frame mounted safety which is easier to opperate and does not drop the hammer.
The negative for the BERETTA is the size limits concealment. It is as bulky as a GLOCK 19 which is a full power 9m.m., not a .380ACP. It is heavier and you can plane rule out pocket or ankle carry.
I own both and usually carry something bigger, but my wife loves the BERETTA 84 for its mild recoil and easy controls.
Hope this helps.
Jim
PX15
Member
JMOfartO:
I'm old, retired, and live in SE Ga.. The wardrobe required during the summer months as regards the extremely high heat and humidity make concealing a large firearm almost impossible.
I've found, for my purposes, that the Seecamp LWS380 does the job for me..
I can put it in a rear pocket (in a wallet style holster) and take it along with me almost anyplace, anytime.
Having a RELIABLE gun WITH you is the name of the game for cc, and I've yet to find a pistol that can conceal easier or any better than my diminutive little Seecamp.
Just personal choice, no argument with those of differing opinions..
Best Wishes,
Jesse
I'm old, retired, and live in SE Ga.. The wardrobe required during the summer months as regards the extremely high heat and humidity make concealing a large firearm almost impossible.
I've found, for my purposes, that the Seecamp LWS380 does the job for me..
I can put it in a rear pocket (in a wallet style holster) and take it along with me almost anyplace, anytime.
Having a RELIABLE gun WITH you is the name of the game for cc, and I've yet to find a pistol that can conceal easier or any better than my diminutive little Seecamp.
Just personal choice, no argument with those of differing opinions..
Best Wishes,
Jesse
PX15
Member
Dupe post 
~ Sorry....
Jesse
~ Sorry....Jesse
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IMTHDUKE
Member
You're wife will think of this as jewelry.....with a bang.
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