.380 for defense: FMJ or JHP? -or- Ruminations on a Bersa.

[Teufelhunden]

As regards a round as small as a .380, is the general cooncensus that a FMJ is needed for more reliable penetration, or a JHP for a greater wound cavity?

In my thinking, a round this small won't benefit a whole lot from a JHP and since it doesn't have a whole lot of weight to carry though the target, would benefit greatly from a FMJ to get it to something vital inside.

At the range, the .380 still drops thick steel plates set at 15m, but nowhere near as quickly as 180grn bullets from my .40 do; they'll rock back, then finally drop.

Finances, availablity and an urgent need limited my car-gun purchase to a Makarov or Bersa class weapon, and the Bersa was at the store. I got a two-tone Bersa Thunder .380 for $225 and it has thus far proven to be reliable. Recoil was a little stouter than I'd expected from such a small round, but that probably has something to do with the small platform it's coming out of.

I think the addition of a wraparound rubber grip would work nicely; I can get anything that will fit a Walther PPK/S, right? I checked Hogues' website and they don't list a wraparound grip. Is the Handall sleeve my only option, or does someone else make rubber grips?

-Teuf

 

[38snapcaps]

Hi there, from a Bersa fan.

From what I've gathered, with this caliber you want as much penetration as you can get. Therefore hollow points are not the best bullet for self defense applications.

There is also the issue of the hollow point becoming plugged with clothing and that will impede its penetrating ability.

Penetration is a result of speed so you need fast bullets. Which are the fast FMJ's in .380? Fiocchi @ 1017 fps, Remington Express, S&B, Winchester USA, and UMC, all at 955 fps.

Accuracy is very important. I've found CCI Blazer, Remington 88gr., and Magtech to be the best in this department.

I've never seen any grips offered by anyone, but keep looking.

I have two Bersa's-one protects my home for my wife to use and one goes with me in my waistband. They are dependable and accurate.

Go to Horge's website for excellent reading.

 

[rde]

I'm am not very knowledgable about ballistic and wound channel results and stuff. So, with my Bersa I decided to load and carry what I can shoot the most accurately with the fastest. It appears...given that we are talking about the Bersa Thunder 380...that it would be any 380 caliber bullet in any design from any major manufacturer with a brass case. It turns out (for me) that the Bersa is so reliable and so easy to shoot accurately that I can go for slide lock and be on target almost without effort. And that makes me (YMMV) comfortable.

 

[Dot_mdb]

wrap around grips

Bersa/Firestorm has their own rubber wrap around grips.

Contact

SGS
1750 BRIELLE AVE. UNIT B-1, WANAMASSA, NJ 07712
Tel: 732-493-0302 Fax: 732-493-0301
e-mail: [email protected]

I think they will sell you the grips for $24 plus postage.

Bill

 

[The_Shootist]

.380 Round?

Was carrying Cor-Bons in my Bersa Thunder but read on the TFL a piece that indicated a steady diet may produce inordinate wear on it. Too bad, as they were reliable and accurate - no problems whatsoever.

Then I saw Steven Camp's piece on testing various .380 rounds thru a Bersa . His recommendations were tied to pix of the expanded rounds, which did most of the talking

Suffice it to say the Remington Golden Sabre mushroomed pretty impressively to about .45 cal and provided 8-9" of penetration, likely sufficient for a frontal shot (s).

Would the same (or any) .380 round function well if it had to go through a barrier or pass through an arm into a person's side. He kinda doubted any .380 round would be ideal.

So, I got a few boxes of GS and (it being a standard pressure round) figure to make that my carry round if it proves accurate and reliable in my Bersa Thunder. I think it will - so far my Bersa has eaten everything I've fed it with no hitches whatsoever.

I simpley feel a brand name JHP like the GS, if several can be accurately delivered rapidly to COM will expand to the point where they disable better than FMJ's which leave such a narrow wound channel.

 

[JCampGCO]

Remington Golden Sabers

Are the only defensive rounds I carry in my guns. I have tested many and found that the GS were the most consistent in terms of accuracy, penetration, and expansion. I would have to say that the hydra shocks are the worst defensive round I have every encounterd. The Winchester rounds (except for the Ranger brand) are just either too light or too slow. Cor-bon is my second choice if I couldn't find any Rem GS.

 

[MICHAEL T]

My Bersa is loaded with the Rem GS102s so is my colt Mustang. IN my PPK/S Ive got CorBon 90gr HP.Why, because my PP likes them ,in my PPK 2nd carry mag is the Rem .Either one it seems will work as long as you do your part. Iam not to keen on the new power ball 380 by CorBon only a 70gr at 1200+fps but to my way of thinking to light. Only time will tell.

 

[David4516]

I know it's not the same, but I've got a Makarov in 9X18 and I prefer JHPs.

The best bullet I've found thus far is the Hornady XTP. It expands to about .60 caliber...

But your results with .380 might be a little different, since they go about 100 FPS slower and are a slighty smaller diameter...

 

[russlate]

XTP's from a Bersa penetrate just shy of 11" in bare gel and almost 14" of clothed gelatin. Average man is about 9" deep in the chest area. Not going to get much closer to ideal penetration from a 38 cal ( .356-.358 ) sized bullet with 200 ft. lbs. of energy to work with.

With more energy to spare you get better terminal results and more difficulty in placing shots accurately. With less recoil to fight, you get more accurate placement. Your call,

 

[MrAcheson]

The hornady rounds seem to have a good balance of expansion and penetration which is really important for the .380s. I want something that will be accurate and penetrate 9-12" and expand to create a larger wound channel, in that order. Hornady doesn't expand as much as some of the other brands, but because of that it tends to penetrate better. In the end there is a lot of trade off going on.

 

[Dave R]

Another fan of the 102gr. Golden Sabre.

I did my own expansion tests in wet newsprint, and was impressed by the penetration, even with full expansion. Looked like about 75% of a 9mm Win Silvertip, which I compared it against.

Penetration is a result of speed so you need fast bullets.

I could be wrong, but I think bullet weight helps penetration more than velocity does. High-velocity, low weight bullets dump a lot of energy into a target, but with a shallow wound path because the light projectiles shed velocity very quickly once they hit something.

Heavy bullets have a different form of energy--momentum.

Do I have these formulas right?

Energy=Mass X velocity squared. Favors velocity highly.

Momentum=Mass X velocity. Favors both equally.

Comments from physics folk?

 

[MrAcheson]

You have the formulas mostly right (its 1/2*mv^2), but the terminology wrong. Momentum is not a different form of energy. They are two different things and have an integral/derivative relationship (which is why the half is important).

In general I'd bet on a heavier bullet penetrating better although it will likely have less wounding potential. It depends. 380 doesn't have very good sectional density so the heavier bullet might do it if you want expansion.

There's just a whole lot of "it depends."

 

[Shane333]

How about alternating bullets in the magazine? One heavy bullet, one light but very fast bullet, one heavy bullet....

After all, what are you really going to do if stuff hits the fan? With a .380 at close range (10 yards or less) against one or two badguy threats, I'm going for slidelock!

 

[MrAcheson]

Mixing loads in a magazine tends to be a bad idea. You need to test it heavily because it opens up a whole new level of reliability concerns. Just because a gun runs fine only one round and only another does not mean it will run fine with both types in the same mag.

 

[wally]

Mixing loads in a magazine tends to be a bad idea. You need to test it heavily because it opens up a whole new level of reliability concerns

You betcha!

That's how I "discovered" so-called "rim lock" in my Kel-Tec P32 had 4 hydrashoks left over and alternated them with UMC FMJ as the last mag at the range. It was the last shot until I got home to disassemble the Mag

In .380 I like the 102gr Golden Saber or the Spanish surplus SJSP since its much hotter than any other .380 factory ammo I've found -- but the shape is a little different so they may not feed in some guns -- they are a bit too long in OAL to feed reliably from the mag of my wife's Beretta 85 and uncomfortable for her to shoot when they do.

--wally.

 

[Shane333]

Hmmm...good point on the potential problems of mixing loads.

 

[horge]

Hi

A .380 FMJ can blow right through 18" of ballistic gelatin.
A .380 expanding round will almost always fail to make the magic 12" of penetration.

JM2Pesos, but...
I think that in a home defense situation, with family members around, the dangers of overpenetration are keenly raised, and so the argument for JHP is boosted. The 12" FBI penetration requirement is really there to account for interposing limbs, bad angles ---in other words, to account for poor shot placement.

I think I'd rather let my training counter poor shot placement, than rely on the cartridge to do it for me --especially if the bullet has to put my loved ones in danger in order to 'compensate for my poor shooting'. Out in the open (CCW), the argument for FMJ may carry more weight --there is perhaps a lower chance fo overpenetration leading to the harm of innocents.


I currently have Remington GS 102 gr JHP's in my Bersa Thunder 380, but a very new cartridge has me impressed, despite its very hokey marketing:
Twin Pines Slilver Bullet.

Twin Pines, who brought us the Rock island Armory 1911 line of pistols
(Armscor being the subcontractior for manufacturing and US distribution)
has trundled out 'Silver Bullets' ---silver-jacketed HP ammo, supposedly effective against 'today's werewolves and undead'

Lame advertising blurb aside, I chrono'ed the shiny little suckers and obtained muzzle velocities way in excess of their claimed 1,034 ft/s:

ten shots, throwing out the highest and lowest, averaged 1056 ft/s with a 90 grain widemouth JHP bullet out of my Bersa Thunder 380 (yep --those are my DIY wooden grips on the Bersa). Thanks, to Cute and Ian of P.B.Dionisio Firng range for making available the chronograph, which was "calibrated" against known performers like the Remington GS, Fiocchi and Armscor .380 cartridges: the chrono was dead-on.

Max. deviation of velocity was 19 ft/s. (Water testing showed expansion about equal to water expansion of Remington Golden Sabers, over 76%, but that's water, not gel or meat). I suppose the wide mouth and thin lips, are to give the bullet a better chance to expand --I guess silver is harder than copper. Recoil was pretty stiff, and while the report sounded (in the words of one onlooker) like very hot 9mm, the muzzle flash was no worse than a PMC Starfire's.

Here are other assorted cartridge stats, if interested
..380 ACP Cartridge Performance

hth

horge