Polish P-64 and Bulgarian Makarov vs. Bersa .380 - Review

[GLOOB]

Yes, he's the guy. His trigger return spring for the P-64 is made from a thicker gauge of wire than the original, and has one less turn. This gives it a lot more spring force.

The Random P 64 is a clone of a Walter PPK and the Walther is set up the same way and very highly sought after as a CCW. In fact, there were even issued to the NJ State Police as backup weapons at one time. The safety is a roller block that completely remove access to the firing pin hammer strike end. Norm tried to tell you this more than once on the P 64 board also.

No this is completely wrong. The Hungarian PA-63 is a Walther PP clone. The Polish P-64 is a Walther PPK derivative in superficial form and function, only. (You could just as soon call a Beretta 92FS a Walther PPK clone, because it is DA/SA and has a slide-mounted decocker/safety). Anyone who knows the first thing about these guns would never call it a PPK clone, unless their only knowledge comes from the internet. The internal mechanism is completely different. I've taken both of these guns apart down to individual pieces, and I know what I'm talking about. Yes, the manual safety blocks the hammer and the FP. But when the safety is off, there's no passive FP safety, like there is on the Walther PPK and the PA-63... and most all centerfire handguns in current production.

 

[GLOOB]

double

 

[GLOOB]

^^So, um, I imagine you also take your mechanical press to the range with you and hot swap the barrels, like I do with my GLOCK. Right?

Ok, here's a more reasonable question. What's the most number of times you have swapped the barrel in any single frame?

 

[MedWheeler]

I am also of the impression that, prior to this thread, the Bersa trigger was respected. It is on mine, and recoil is almost non-existent. If the ammo was as readily available and inexpensive as .22LR is, this would be my most-enjoyable gun to shoot.
I don't profess that it is better than any 9x18-chambered pistol, as I've not shot any. However, if I were to get the chance to do a side-by-side review of two or more similar guns, I'd use only unmodified specimens.

 

[GLOOB]

The irony is that the P-64 is much more likely to experience the malfunction you show in the second link than a Bersa. The P-64 is not a PPK, nor is it a Pistolet Makarov. I'm not claiming anything bad about your beloved Pistolet Makarov's! So stop responding as such! PM's are great, but they cost slightly more than a Bersa plus wait time, for most of the country.

Third vid: Fiocchi ammo has a thicker rim than some of the other brands. Some guns will not feed it. Or course this would never be a problem on a P-64, because the rims would just jump over the extractor, like they do all the time in normal feeding. I'm not sure that's a good feature, but it happens on mine when I slow feed a round.

As for barrel swap: that's my point. It's more of a one time decision with these fixed-barrel guns. So if you want a .380, just buy a .380.

 

[GLOOB]

More than a few people have described this type of malfunction on the board. At least one had never even disassembled this part, before.

Norm's proposed solution: clean out all the cosmo.

Well, if a little cosmo can make the trigger completely whiff (not a FTF, FTE, not even a light strike. We're talking pull trigger= haha, nothing happens), some people might call that a bad design. Dried cosmo might be likened to.. oh, dried mud or dirt?

 

[WardenWolf]

Gloob:

I have a well-cleaned, well-oiled, previously unfired P-64 that's had just enough rounds through it to properly break it in. The guy with the Bersa did his own reloads, and had clearly put a lot of rounds through his pistol. It was broken in.

And we're not talking a little cosmoline that will make these things malfunction. We're talking being FULL of it. Like my PSL was when I got it. My father's P-64 had a gritty trigger when he first got it. After proper cleaning and Breakfree, it's now smooth as can be.

Regarding your earlier statement about no firing pin safety, the P-64 has a firing pin spring so dropping it on its nose is not going to cause it to go off. It also has a hammer block. Also, what is your issue with the single action trigger? You claimed it has a long pull. Yet myself and everyone else who owns these guns have found it to be a hair trigger, about the same as a tuned 1911.

Haters are gonna hate, but please do not spam up my thread with uninformed BS designed to make the Bersa sound great and the P-64 sound like trash just because it's cheaper. You've been told by many, many people that you're wrong on many counts, but you keep coming, and you keep "conveniently" double posting. Stop now or you will be reported for spam.

 

[MICHAEL T]

A Bersa thunder DA trigger should be around 10 lbs and SA about 1/2 that. If his is as bad as poster claims Then needs to go to Warranty center to be looked at.
Saw posted that the 9x18 mags were now 25 well Bersa Thunder 7 rounder is 26.95 . It just depends on what you want or like . Their is one here who will go out of his way to bash a Bersa . Doesn't matter if 300 people says their is great shooter and reliable He will say their wrong. I never attack his pistols, but he always attacks any Bersa.

 

[GLOOB]

Doh.
Easy, there pal. I'm not a hater. I own and like my P-64. I'd have it any day over a Bersa, for what I paid.

But really. "Bersa is inferior in every single way. The single action trigger like a 1911." Hahahaha...

Ok, honestly. Do you own any other pistols? This is your first and only handgun, am I right?

I currently own 6 pistols, and I have owned a Colt Series 80 Officer's Model 1911. And I'm saying the SA trigger pull and the trigger reset on the P-64 are not anything I'd call good, and nothing in the world like a Colt Series 80 1911.

Doc: Can you show me a single P-64 that has survived 40+ years of military use? They were issued in the 60's and replaced around 20 years later by the Wanad. And the ones that are currently being imported into the US have never been issued. I believe a Bersa could survive 40 years of sitting in a packing crate, too.

 

[klash545]

Maks are simple,reliable and accurate....and cheap. all good qualities

 

[WardenWolf]

Pistols:

I got my start with my father's Ruger Mark I and his original Colt Combat Commander with a 70xx serial number (and yes, I know it's not really a series 70). I have fired his Ruger revolvers as well as his Smiths. I currently own a Ruger P90, Ruger 22/45 Mark III Hunter, Romanian Tokarev, Polish P-64, and a Bulgarian Makarov. These are just the pistols in my own household. I have fired many, many different kinds of pistols. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[bdb benzino]

oh no, now you guys are whipping it out and measuring it. They are all great pistols depending on what your needs and tastes are.

 

[GLOOB]

P-64 trigger

Ok, then.

Let's see if there's perhaps something we are not seeing the same way. And FTR, mine is an eary 60's model with the small stamp on the rear frame that shows it to have the trigger enhancements that came out at some point.

1. ALL DA/SA guns I have ever fired have been the same in this regard. When I cock the hammer, the trigger sets backwards for the SA pull. All except the P-64. The trigger doesn't move. Is it broken? No, it's just wonky.

2. The 1911 trigger is famous for its short travel. The P-64 trigger has a LARGE AMOUNT OF TRAVEL. (And I'm talking about even after you've taken out the improbably huge amount of pretravel). Yeah, it's light, but it moves about 1/8 inch before it breaks. If I pull the SA trigger on my P-64 slowly, there are at least 4 recognizable stages of separate creep before the trigger breaks. Ok, even if the travel were smooth as a baby's bottom, this would still be very un-1911-like. A good 1911 trigger wouldn't move far enough to have this many individual instances of creep. It would be impossible.

3. And then there's the break. The 1911 trigger is likened to a glass rod breaking. The P-64 trigger breaks as if falling over a ledge, not as if snapping a glass rod.

4. When you back off the P-64 SA trigger at the last second, the sear does not always reset to the original position. Pulling back on the hammer, you'll hear the sear reset. This does not happen on most quality firearms that have a good trigger with a well-defined break.

5. All these are features that are shared by my Phoenix Arms HP-22A Saturday night special. They don't bother me so much on a pot metal gun, though.

6. Worst reset on any pistol I've ever handled. You essentially have to let it all the way forward, including the ridiculous amount of pretravel.

So how in the world would you say this is akin to a 1911? I call it plain wonky.

Also, re: FP safety. Calling a firing pin spring a FP safety is like calling a trigger return spring a trigger block safety. When you pull the trigger, the trigger return spring is there. But you still manage to fire the gun, right? And when you shoot the gun, the FP spring is there. And yet the gun still manages to fire. This gun could fire if dropped muzzle-down.

And again, FTR, I'm not a hater. I think it's a marvelous gun at current pricing and worth every penny. I even CCW it, occasionally.

Also FTR, my PA-63 happens to have a very 1911-esque SA trigger, IMHO. It barely moves at all. It basically breaks under pressure, not movement. It has barely a hint of creep, and has barely any place to have creep. And it breaks like the proverbial glass rod.

Edit: to Doc Glock:

Please do not ever run Norm Sutton down ever again!

Please try to resist the urge to make outlandishly false accusations. I am in no way running Norm down, so don't throw his name up like a magic shield. Fact: he said that cosmo was probably the reason the gun was malfunctioning. If he's right, then some would consider there to be a weak point in the design. I'm going on the assumption that he is correct, so how's that "running him down?" Also, to WardenWold, I am pretty sure the guy had fieldstripped, cleaned, and lubed his gun properly. He just had not boiled it in water, or put it in the oven, to get out the cosmo from the deep crevices.

 

[CornCod]

I have owned a Mak but not a P-64. I too prefer the Mak over the Bersa .380. However, I do find the Bersa Thunder to be a good firearm. After a couple of break-in jams my Bersa runs like a top. I have carried my Bersa concealed quite often. I like the Makarov trigger better than the Bersa, but after a lot of practice, I find I can shoot the Bersa almost as well as the Mak.

 

[harmon rabb]

But if you are the type that's willing to put the time and effort in, most of the milsurp 9x18's have the potential to become a better gun than a new Bersa.

time and effort? i guess to remove the cosmoline, but other than that they don't need anything.

 

[pockets]

I own a P-64, P-83, Bersa .380, PPK/s, PA-63, Bulg Mak, CZ82, and a bunch of others of that same general class in .380 & 9x18.
I love taking the Makarov to the range, low cost 9mm plinking is a blast. I enjoy shooting the P-64, P-83, CZ82, and PA-63 also. The Bersa is okay, but I prefer my PPK/s to it.

What do I end up carrying? A Kel-Tec PF-9 most days. Same size, half the weight, and chambered for 9x19.

 

[Snowdog]

...will think twice about carrying one for a CCW

I would think twice about carrying anything in .380acp for belt carry... period.
For that matter, I wouldn't carry anything in 9x18 either unless all 9x19s and anything hotter were banned from carry; they're little more than a .380acp, being much closer to a .380acp than 9x19.

There are far better choices out there than the Makarov or its derivatives, all of which are nearing obsolescence (which is why their host countries have dumped them on the American market in favor of more modern designs and 9x19 chambering). Any country still using the Mak or other such pistols are doing so because they cannot afford to upgrade (all of which are considered "poor" by Western standards).

If 9x18 were all I could carry, the CZ-82 would be the way to go due to the capacity, trigger and sights.

 

[harmon rabb]

The only gun that has met obsolescence is the 1911.

wow did you just open a can of worms. soon, 1911 devotees will be in here telling you how the 1911 changed warfare as much as the invention of gun powder

 

[Snowdog]

The fact of the matter is the human body is intolerant to being struck with projectiles with a velocity of around 1,000 feet a second, regardless of size, as John Moses Browning has written in defense of his .25 Auto pistol and bullet design. he was right.

I have several pellet rifles that will exceed 1000 fps. Obviously there's more to the game than simply velocity. Not to say the 9x18 is speedy. As far as military pistol cartridges go (modern standards), it's quite sluggish... and rather light in weight. Not the best combination I would think.

The only gun that has met obsolescence is the 1911.

You might be right; you won't find me playing the fanboy of the 1911 like some do the Makarov. But darn if the modern commercial renditions of the 1911 aren't accurate, reliable, effective and FUN! Whoo hoo!

The Mak is a little bigger at .364 or 9.21 mm........

And a lot less powerful than most of them.
A paintball measures a tad shy of .70, so what does this mean to you?

The Mak is being used in Afghanistan at the present time.

LMAO, yes indeed! Why isn't this surprising?
Maybe they can update to a more modern sidearm after they discover motorized transportation.
Just because something is "still being used" doesn't mean jack.


Image from http://www.smh.com.au

 

[North Bender]

The only people I saw using Maks in AFG were private security and some of the police forces. Being a Mak collector I struck up a conversation with anyone I found carrying a Mak and universally they did not appreciate the pistol. They called it underpowered and old news. As everyone else had 9mm, the ones left with Makarovs were the low enders and it left them feeling out of style. Even in a war zone fashion is important.

 

[Fastcast]

I'm amazed at the love for Bersa .....I looked them over years ago and decided they were not something I'd want to spend my money on, as little as it was. Everyone has different expectations of what "quality" is, I guess.

I'd take a CZ-82 to battle anywhere or anytime, over any stinking Bersa or KelTec, for that matter. I had some other "dumb cluck" tell me in another thread my wife would be better served CC a Keltec with 7rds of 9x19 than her Beretta 84 with 14 rounds of .380.....The 84 is the epitome of what a reliable, accurate, quick shooting, quality compact pistol is suppose to be!

I'll take the weaker .380 or 9x18 in an utterly reliable, well respected, proven design such as the 84, 82 or Mak, than a 9x19 in something of the likes of a Bersa or Keltec......LMAO

I'm not nearly as concerned about the differences in the 9x17, 9x18 & 9x19 as I am the platform that's firing those cartridges.......To each, their own!

 

[Snowdog]

I bet your Beretta 84 or CZ82 has more than 17... no wait, 27 parts. It can't possibly be as reliable as a Mak.

I suppose some fanboys of the Makarov (which admittedly is a decent pistol) rub me the wrong way. It's like hearing some kid that just bought his first car go on and on about how his 2001 Mitsubishi Eclipse can smoke any car on the road or the track. Maybe if "smoke" refers to blowing a head gasket.

Personally, I completely agree it's the indian and not the arrow. If someone finds a particular pistol that's reliable and that they're good with, they're in good shape (yes, even if it's with a Makarov).

 

[MCgunner]

Skimming over the posts, everyone has made the arguments. I've never fired a Bersa, so I can't pass any sort of judgment on it, but I can say that the Mak (SIL has one) and my P64 are quite excellent. I much prefer the P64 for carry and it's actually more accurate than my SIL's Mak despite being smaller physically. The little thing is a tack driver.

Now, I have replaced the hammer spring with a 19 lb wolf, made the gun VERY shootable in DA, GREAT improvement. And, I put a 22 lb recoil spring which helpped attenuate, some, the recoil force. The Marschal grips really helped the impact on the web of my hand. This little fart kicked harder than my 14 ounce Kel Tec P11 shooting 9x19+P when I got it. Now, at least it doesn't hurt to shoot it. It is a joy to shoot plates and such with, so accurate. I've driven up to the range before, see a guy with a BIG service size gun shooting and missing, whip out the little P64 and start walking the plates down, one after the other. They get all slack jawed. LOL! In addition to the OP, let me say that I've done a lot of instinctive point shooting with the P64 and it point shoots as well as any gun I own, probably specific to me, but that's another reason I like it.

Truth be told, I prefer my P11 as a pocket carry. It's also very accurate, very pointable, carries 11 rounds of much more powerful 9x19+P. It's like carrying a service gun in my pocket and after 11K+ trouble free rounds over the last 14 years, it's more than proven itself to me. But, I do like the little new to me P64 a lot. Like I say, I can't compare the Bersa to it in any way as I've never fired Bsrsa. Interesting that the trigger might not be that great. I'm a good DA shooter, probably should try one for myself, but I have no interest in a Bersa or in a .380 at the moment. I have a .380 I never carry. I wear rather large pocket jeans and the P11 rides just fine. The P64 is thinner and shows less print in the pocket, but is a bit heavier. I also carry my ultralite .38 revolver on occasion. Its advantage is it's stainless which is a good thing when I'm out on the water fishing or something. Salt water accidently gets on it, no biggy. I can clean it up without pitting when I get home.

Here's a pic of my P64 with the new grips. They really help and look better than the plastic.

 

[MCgunner]

Oh, one minor thing I like about the P64, the heal clip mag release. I think it's a better system for a pocket gun, no accidental release of the magazine. I've not had any problems with that on the P11, though. It has a slip on Hogue handall on it which does help protect the magazine release button from accidental engagements.

 

[Snowdog]

If the P64 were C&R while remaining inexpensive, I would have had one by now. I do like the looks and they appear to be very well made. My local FFL dealer has increased his fee from $10 to $45 per transfer after a couple local shops closed. Now just about all my new purchases are made using my C&R.

one minor thing I like about the P64, the heal clip mag release. I think it's a better system for a pocket gun, no accidental release of the magazine.

I completely agree. My P32 has had the mag ejectwhile in my back pocket on several occasions. I don't carry it often, but when I do (and for whatever reason find belt carry unpractical), I try to keep it in the front pocket. I really should get a pocket holster for the thing.