380 MK II load data? (38 S&W using 180gr bullet)

[matt85]

Hello all, I have a Webley MK IV that is set up for the 380 MK II loading of the 38 S&W cartridge. i learned this the hard way by trying to use .361" 145gr and 200gr bullets which promptly leaded the crap out of my .358" cylinder. you can also tell because the 200gr bullets shoot high and the 145gr bullets shoot low.

so i got my hands on a bunch of Speer .358" 180gr spire point bullets. i tried using the common load of 2.6gr of W231 but the velocities averaged only 470fps with mediocre accuracy and im not willing to increase that load. can any one suggest some load data that will give the correct velocity? (around 600fps)

thank you
-matt

 

[murf]

welcome to the high road, matt.

from cartridges of the world: 38 smith and wesson, 200gn factory ball, unique, 3.1gn, 620mv, 172me.

best I can do,

murf

 

[25-5]

I have a Webley MkIII. 38 S&W, 1929. I had been warned not to use the 200gr .361. Slugged barrel at .357. After a lot of experimenting I settled on a Missouri Bullet coated 158gr SWC and 2.6 gr W231. I worked one up for Tightgroup also.
I do not dump the powder. It's weighed for each.
I checked factory ammo, which had worked well, and found them to be .358 or .357.
My Enfield Mk2 No1, however, likes the 200gr .361. Matt's Bullets.

 

[Jim Watson]

you can also tell because the 200gr bullets shoot high and the 145gr bullets shoot low.

Trivia
Back when Webley still made revolvers, they sold a front sight blade the right height for .38 S&W commercial 146 gr.

 

[Walkalong]

im not willing to increase that load

At 478 FPS, why not?

Welcome to THR

 

[matt85]

I have a Webley MkIII. 38 S&W, 1929. I had been warned not to use the 200gr .361. Slugged barrel at .357. After a lot of experimenting I settled on a Missouri Bullet coated 158gr SWC and 2.6 gr W231. I worked one up for Tightgroup also.
I do not dump the powder. It's weighed for each.
I checked factory ammo, which had worked well, and found them to be .358 or .357.
My Enfield Mk2 No1, however, likes the 200gr .361. Matt's Bullets.

thank you for the information. which factory ammunition did you find to work? all the factory ammunition I tried was loaded with .355" bullets and gave poor accuracy.

Trivia
Back when Webley still made revolvers, they sold a front sight blade the right height for .38 S&W commercial 146 gr.

my pistol is marked TPF or Toronto Police Force and every thing ive read and been told claims they used the 380 MK II cartridge. with the standard 145-148gr bullets the gun shoots a couple inches low of POA. the 200gr bullet shoots a couple inches high of POA. my tests with the 180gr Speer shows they shoot almost exactly to POA. however I did find that if you using the top of the strap (top of rear sight) the 145gr bullet can be used accurately but im pretty sure that's not how the sights are meant to be used.

At 478 FPS, why not?

Welcome to THR

thank you. W231 is a pretty fast powder and the general accepted max is around 2.6gr. there was also visible signs on the case suggesting rather high pressures for this type of gun.

-matt

 

[25-5]

38 S&W factory ammo I used was:
Remington Target
Fiocchi
Privi Partisan.
The Privi brass did not reload well for me in this one caliber for .358 or .361. I don't know why, but it's good brass that I use in many other pistol and rifle calibers.

 

[mcb]

I am using 2.5 gr of Herco under Matt's Bullets 200 gr Hemispherical round nose bullet and am getting 600 fps from my Webley Mark IV.

I bet Matt would resize some of his 200 gr bullets to .358 if you asked.

 

[Archie]

At 478 fps. why not up the load?

My reasoning for not upping the charge would be "It's old gun and I'm not using it for defense".

 

[Bfh_auto]

Why not step to a slightly slower burning powder?
I ran 180's in a 38 special with bluedot. It worked well.
Obviously you are using a different cartridge and a weaker gun so I can't recommend a charge. But there are quite a few powders between 231and bluedot.

 

[matt85]

Why not step to a slightly slower burning powder?
I ran 180's in a 38 special with bluedot. It worked well.
Obviously you are using a different cartridge and a weaker gun so I can't recommend a charge. But there are quite a few powders between 231and bluedot.

I tried HS-6 a couple days ago (faster then blue dot) and while I was able to achieve roughly the correct velocity... it was all over the place. 4gr of HS-6 gave a high of 620 and a low of 540 which tells me it just isn't burning consistently.

the problem is the cartridge operates at such a low pressure that slower powders just don't burn properly. the 38 Special is operating at 17k+ PSI while the 38 S&W sits at 12k PSI.

im going to pick up some Unique and maybe some Herco when I get a chance and give that a try.

-matt

 

[Bfh_auto]

I tried HS-6 a couple days ago (faster then blue dot) and while I was able to achieve roughly the correct velocity... it was all over the place. 4gr of HS-6 gave a high of 620 and a low of 540 which tells me it just isn't burning consistently.

the problem is the cartridge operates at such a low pressure that slower powders just don't burn properly. the 38 Special is operating at 17k+ PSI while the 38 S&W sits at 12k PSI.

im going to pick up some Unique and maybe some Herco when I get a chance and give that a try.

-matt

Flake powder is where it's at for low pressure.
What about something like black MZ?

 

[Blue68f100]

HS6 does best with a Mag primer.

 

[matt85]

Flake powder is where it's at for low pressure.
What about something like black MZ?

I had never heard of black MZ so I did a quick search, a black powder substitute I hadn't heard of before. on that note I do actually have quite a lot of real black powder in sizes 4f-1f at my disposal. giving 4f powder a try would actually be kind of fun but I don't think it will work with these jacketed bullets. perhaps a future project...

HS6 does best with a Mag primer.

I had thought about that, shame I don't have any magnum small pistol primers handy. id hate to buy 1000 primers only to find they wont work (cant get the little boxes locally). ill hit up my friend who also hand loads and see if hes got some he would be willing to part with.

-matt

 

[Walkalong]

HS-6 is going to be erratic and dirty at that low pressure level, mag primer or not. WST would be a good one to try.

 

[matt85]

as said above, using magnum primers did not help with HS-6.

-matt

 

[matt85]

went to the store and had an option of Herco or Unique and Herco was cheaper... so ive got a pound of Herco. according to all my data they are pretty similar so hopefully I made the right decision.

edit: I don't have much time so I just quickly loaded 3 cartridges with 3gr of Herco under the Speer 180gr bullet. the 3 shots averaged 565 FPS with an extreme spread of 32 fps. the bore looked reasonable clean, no unburnt powder. the cases are only slightly deformed but no more then other correctly loaded ammunition (Matt's and Buffalo Bore).

this is very promising and I cant wait to try out some target shooting!

-matt

 

[Walkalong]

Very nice, glad it is working for you.

 

[matt85]

I fired 6 shots of 3gr and 6 shots of 3.2gr at a target. the 3gr load wasn't great in terms of accuracy but the 3.2gr was much better. I think I might try 3.4gr and see what happens.

-matt

 

[.455_Hunter]

Getting that Speer to 180 gr 600 - 650 fps should put your right on track for WWII milspec performance.

 

[matt85]

Getting that Speer to 180 gr 600 - 650 fps should put your right on track for WWII milspec performance.

just did a quick test with 3.4gr of Herco, velocity averaged 650fps. ill get around to testing accuracy some time soon.

-matt

 

[matt85]

i believe i have reached a decent load. after much playing around i came to like 3.4gr of Herco under the 180gr Speer bullet. velocity is right at 650fps and accuracy is good.

the only real down side to this load is Herco is a major pain in the butt to meter! every load must be double checked and i must accept a weight range of 3.3-3.5 or it would take 100 years to make just a few cartridges. i REALLY hate flake powders but they seem to be the most consistent with the 38 S&W cartridge.

 

[matt85]

below (left to right): 180gr Speer, 145gr Missouri, 145gr PPU (factory cartridge).

 

[Walkalong]

180gr Speer

Cool, and I have some of those.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

thank you. W231 is a pretty fast powder and the general accepted max is around 2.6gr. there was also visible signs on the case suggesting rather high pressures for this type of gun.

Matt, generally accepted by who? W231 is not a very fast powder.

At that charge weight what type of pressure signs are you seeing? I'm sorry but I can't see any 38 S&W brass showing pressure signs at that low a charge and pressure/velocity.