380 Question

[American1776]

Hi all. I'm pretty new here. As I posted in the autoloader forum, I just purchased my first handgun, a Sig Sauer P232. I shot 100 rounds of CCI Blazer Brass through it, and it functioned flawlessly. I decided, for now, that since it seems to feed the FMJ rounds well, I'd stock up on ball ammo.
I know that some folks here subscribe to the philosophy that says that ball ammo in a 380 pistol can maximize penetration where JHPs may not reliably penetrate (although there are good SD rounds out there). My question is: I live in a town house with my significant other. In the event of a home invasion, would 380 ball ammo be significant cause for concern with overpenetration (assuming I put rounds on target)? That is, how likely (or unlikely) is a 95 grain fmj round out of my Sig P232 to perforate through the target (assuming CM hits), perforate a wall and land in a neighbor's house? I have standard pressure FMJ rounds, and the Sig has a 3.6 inch barrel.
Thanks in advance.

 

[gordy]

Go with a hot JHP

I would say very unlikely.
Most 380 ball is very slow, 780 to 800 fps, Hot jhp's are the way to go.
Corbon 90grain jhp are (HOT) right around 1000 fps. They will expand quite a bit and will not penetrate as much as ball.
I have reloaded the 380acp for many years. If you speed it up and use a good jhp bullet you can have a very good hd gun.
The thought of jhp not doing there job is coming from the fact that they sometimes are not all that fast and you need speed to get the thing to open up.
Hornady make a 90 grain jhp that does real well.
I reload it to about 980fps and it is impressive for a 380.
I use them in a Kel-Tec and it is very impressive.
You will not get the same impact from ball as you will get from a jhp.
Ball just goes in and may tumble. were jhp at the right speed will give much better effect.
Many will say I am wrong and for you to use ball ammo. And that will give you a 38sp at standard speeds with a lighter bullet.
Speed that little 90grain jhp up and see the difference, It will be better than most 38sp+p's.
Save your ball ammo for practice and use hot jhp's for hd.
I will say that you may want a bigger(in size) gun for hd much more to hand on to in the dark. lots of S&W k frame revolvers out there and many good autos for sale in the used market. But there is nothing wrong with the 380acp.

 

[Gun Geezer]

Not likely to overpenetrate thru the CM of the bad guy, though a wall, and into somebody else on the other side.

The ballistic gel type info I have seen indicates ball ammo of the 380 ACP just making about 9".

 

[C-grunt]

I know of a couple murders locally where .380 rounds went completely through people. Balistic gel is a good measuring tool for projectile performance but doesnt sho what a bullet is going to do in a bad guy.

 

[American1776]

Thanks gordy and steve. Lots of great info and wisdom on these boards. Part of the reason why my Sig P232 is my HD firearm (and soon to be CCW) is because I wanted my first firearm to be something that my gf can also handle proficiently. She has pretty small hands, and double stack autos were too big for her to comfortably handle. Service sized revolvers are good, but I wanted something that I could also CCW easily until I can make a second handgun purchase.

I just ordered two more magazines for the Sig (for a total of 4 mags). At 7 rounds per mag, 28 rounds immediately at hand should be sufficient for almost any realistic scenario (we live in a nice neighborhood).

Just from my own experience with the Sig at the range, I certainly feel like the 380 acp is not a whimpy cartrige.

 

[American1776]

Hi C-grunt; do you know of any details about where the rounds on the body went through? I can see that a through and through at the periphery would be more likely than a CM hit upper chest, or perhaps through an arm and into the chest, where more resistance would likely be met.
Thanks for the info.

 

[C-grunt]

Hi C-grunt; do you know of any details about where the rounds on the body went through? I can see that a through and through at the periphery would be more likely than a CM hit upper chest, or perhaps through an arm and into the chest, where more resistance would likely be met.
Thanks for the info.

Both head shots.

 

[Smaug]

If you do some reading of folks' work who have actually researched ballistic results, they grudgingly admit that 380 ACP hollow points (especially the hot ones) are adequate.

The concern is that if the shot enters the body through an arm or shoulder, it may not get the job done in one shot. So I'll take my chances on that and be ready to administer repeat shots. It is easy enough with a solid little 380 like my Bersa or your Sig Sauer.

While FMJ has better penetration, it also disrupts and cuts tissue less on the way; it tends to push organs out of the way, rather than lacerate them and cause big trauma.

Also, most folks will admit that being an expert with a lesser caliber, so that the shots hit the right place, is preferable to a lesser hit or a miss with a more "proven" caliber.

As for the worry about penetrating through walls and hitting neighbors, there has been some research done at boxotruth.com. (?) Basically, even the humble 22LR will penetrate multiple sheets of drywall and still carry enough energy to kill.

That always strikes me as strange, that we can depend on it to go through 6-8 sheets of drywall (which is quite hard) why are we worried that it will not do the job on a soft person, even with a hard bone here and there.

I would have no problem depending on my 380 as a home defense gun.

 

[Gun Geezer]

Both head shots.

Wow. Thru and thru on a head shot?! Never would have thought it. Not doubting you, just surprised.

 

[huntsman]

I don't think .380acp FMJ in a HD gun is an issue (I use BB hardcast in my BDA) in my carry guns it's JHP, no real proof for this thinking it's just what I feel.

 

[C-grunt]

Wow. Thru and thru on a head shot?! Never would have thought it. Not doubting you, just surprised.

You would be surprised with the amount of penetration handguns can have sometimes. I have seen a .22 out of a short barrel almost completely penetrate a persons head from an accidental shooting.

 

[Steve C]

Most people underestimate penetration and range of ammunition. In the .380 ball ammo will typically penetrate 18" or more of ballistic gel. Unless you are shooting a particularly large assailant that will be a through shot. JHP's from a .380 will typically penetrate 10 to 12" with most being under the 12" recommended by the FBI for their ammo. This doesn't mean the round is ineffective, just that it isn't what the FBI would recommend for an LEO service round.

Read this .380 Summary PDF from Brassfetcher.com to get a good idea about what the .380 will do out of the diminutive P3AT Kel tec. Take a look at some of the slow motion (hi speed video) penetration tests to be found on this website too and then decide if you want to use ball or JHP's.

My personal opinion is that ball is for practice and JHP's are for defense.

 

[makarovnik]

Ballistic gel usually doesn't have bones inside.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Nice debate on this exact subject: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=582307.
Another discussion here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=588869

You can also search for more threads. Bottom lines: the less risk of overpenetration, the more risk of underpenetration; .380 is right at the margin of dependable SD calibers, so some strongly prefer HPs, some FMJs--and some mix them; wallboard is easily penetrated by SD rounds; specialty ammo like Glaser, while available, is seldom used, and there are probably reasons for that.

Good luck.

 

[golden]

REMINGTON 88 grain JHP

I use the REMINGTON 88 grain JHP in my .380ACP pistols. It is the only hollow point that is 100% reliable in every .380ACP that I have fired it in. Also, I can get 100 rounds boxes at WALMART for the same price as BALL ammo.

It might work as well as FEDERAL HYDRO SHOK, but in my SIG 230, I had a misfeed with 1 round of HYDRO SHOK, so I stick with the REMINGTON jhp.

Also of note is accuracy. On the 150 point/30 round qualification drill my agency uses, I can shoot 150 out of 150 with the REMINGTON ammo in my SIG 230.

It also performs well in my BERETTA 84 and is virtually jam proof in that gun.

I have shot it in a BROWNING 1910 with excellent accuracy also.

I would not use BALL ammo as it is no more effective than the old .38 Special 158 grain round nose and that load had a terrible track record on the street.

The great gun writer Skeeter SKELTON used to advocate the .380ACP as just as effective as the.38 Special round nose load with the advantages of a semi auto.

Jim