.380 question.

[James T Thomas]

.380 FMJ vs HP?

It is difficult to keep on THR when you have developed a headache!

The premise was .380 question: FMJ vs HP ammunition for one shot "stops?"

N982L: The thing about the FMJ is that it basicaly goes where you point it.
Alright then, point it at the heart or brain. The AK and Mosin examples you give verify that statement.
But then you state how the HP will most likely slide off and bounce around, shredding organs. Like a pin ball or billiards? With the same logic it "might" also bounce around shredding connective tissue, or round and round inside the rib cage, while that old FMJ round goes right to the vitals.

Naked P: Sorry, I'm lost or have become side tracked when reading about advocating the selection of other calibers and guns.

 

[isp2605]

the sternum would be severely shocked from any of the cartridges you listed (FMJ, HP, SP) and would at the very least chip from the impact. If it was the FMJ it would probably crack it and if it was the HP it would probably slide off the side in between the ribs and bounce around a bit.

Now there is someone who has never seen anyone actually shot with a .380, or for that matter anything else. If anyone thinks a .380 in any flavor is only going to crack, shock, or chip a sternum or just slide off they haven't been around any shooting situations. That's beyond laughable.
One of our agents was working UC when the BG pulled out a gun. Our agent fired 1 rd from a PPK loaded with Silvertips. The rd hit the guy dead center in the sternum and lodged up against the guy's spine. There was no "sliding off the side betwen ribs and bounce around a bit" and no chipping.
On another situation we were making an entry into a room to arrest a subject when he opened up on us with a TEC-9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other. Both guns were loaded with FMJ. He then put the .380 to his head and fired 1 rd. The rd entered his skull just in front of his right upper ear. It exited behind the left upper ear. The rd then went thru the arm of an overstuffed chair. Continued on striking a wall, going thru over 1" of drywall at an angle, then hit a 2X4 stud where it lodged over 1/2 way in the stud. The skull is a lot harder than a sternum. It did more than crack his skull. It went thru both sides and kept on going. There was no sliding, chipping, or cracking of anything. Just punching a hole.
We had another agent who was wearing steel toed boots when he was shot once with a .380 loaded with FMJ. The rd drilled a nice neat hole thru the steel toe of his boot, thru his foot, thru the bottom of his boot, and thru the floor of the guy's house. We found the bullet in the basement. The rd didn't slide, chip, crack or dent anything. Just drilled a hole.

 

[Thernlund]

all your doing, EHL, is putting your comfort over your safety as do so many of the mousegun afficienados. "Gee, I can carry a gun but those big ones are sooo uncomfortable. They hurt my hands, they pull down my pants, it sticks me when I sit down. I need a better answer, and besides, I've never even seen a bad guy here except on TV."

Yeah EHL! What in God's name are you thinking?! You need to be strapped with one of these 24-flipin'-7...





(If you guys don't knock it off the thread will be locked.)


-T.

 

[EHL]

Wow Thernland, that's a sweet pic! If you own that, my hat goes off to you!!

ISP2605, that is a great post. Very interesting info on the ballistics for the .380.

 

[Thernlund]

Naw. Not mine. It's an airsoft replica I found with a Google search.

I WISH I could find the real thing. Pfff. I'd mortgage my house for it. Believe that.


-T.


EDIT: Here's some cool info...

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm

Sorry. Don't mean to jack the thread, but this thread has already gone south.

 

[krs]

Hmmm, did the military finally get miniguns that fire 5.56?

 

[EHL]

Dude!!! This is .380 stopping power thread! Let's not hijack the thread.

Although this article on the minigun is super interesting!!!! I always thought they were able to produce it.
Anyways, to get back to the thread topic, (ahem) .380 is sufficient for SD, but not for practical real life police door-breaking down work. I'd stick with JHP's as long as I tested them for proper penetration and expansion. There are ALOT of SD .380 bullets that don't make the cut, but there are a select bunch that in most cases will achieve the desired results. So do your research and test out your carry ammo to make sure it is what you want.

There.... Back on topic. Whew!!

 

[Matt-J2]

As it happens I am a near 60 year old you call cornfed arthritic diabetic with severe edema and periferal neuropathy. I'm also a combat vet with two Purple Hearts. I carry my .45 in an Isreali surplus shoulder bag now that I'm retired but I used to carry it in my briefcase. Have you any idea how silly you sound when you say:

Certainly no sillier than having one or more posts complaining and belittling those carrying smaller/lighter/less powerful firearms due to comfort reasons, then openly stating you don't actually carry your .45 on your person. After all that, you even admit to carrying9or having carried) in a briefcase, certainly not the option for a person that takes SD seriously, since it's one of the least accessible places to have a firearm.
Glass houses, stones, and all that fun stuff.

 

[Loosedhorse]

You want a hollow point...

that will actually expand at low (.380 ACP) velocities. I'd worry about regular JHPs, SXTs or XTPs not opening.

Consider Corbon DPX, Rem Golden Saber, and...

Buffalo Bore AND Double Tap use Gold Dot. Hmmmm. Might be something there.....

But we're talking cart, and should be talking horse: it's GOT to be ammo that doesn't jam your gun. Reliability first. Then accuracy (short barrel, SD gun? 5 inches at 10 ft offhand acceptable).

Then worry about the bullet.

 

[the naked prophet]

Loosedhorse, the problem (assuming you've found ammo that is reliable and have practiced enough, etc) is not finding a hollowpoint that will expand at .380 velocities. Most brands will.

The problem is finding a hollowpoint that, once expanded will penetrate deep enough to reliably hit anything important. There are none that I have been able to find. You don't want the bullet expanding perfectly, and then getting stuck in the bad guy's fat rolls. It may cause pain and eventually infection, but no incapacitation. A FMJ bullet that penetrates through the fat and hits the lungs or heart is better than a JHP that expands and stops short - even with perfect shot placement.

Shot placement only matters if the bullet goes deep enough to hit what's behind your perfect aim.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by krs:
all your doing, EHL, is putting your comfort over your safety as do so many of the mousegun afficienados. "Gee, I can carry a gun but those big ones are sooo uncomfortable. They hurt my hands, they pull down my pants, it sticks me when I sit down. I need a better answer, and besides, I've never even seen a bad guy here except on TV."

I'd submit that a person suffering from arthritis will not feel it at all if his or her life is about to end. I'll submit that most of the people who are able to successfully carry a colt (or other) 1911 pistol are the skinny guys who can wear pants that are tight enough to stay up on their boney hips. Your cornfed 250 pounders generally need to wear suspenders to carry on their belt and so have a tougher time than you do. If they don't their belt will never resist the inevitable roll under their bellies no matter how tightly they cinch their $100. gun belt.

The reality is that it's only people who have actually known the need who take their personal protection seriously and carry serious weaponry. Combat vets know, prior victims of violent crime know that when it hurts it hurts bad and they know too how quickly a person can go from being there talking to lying there dead.

When it comes down to the wire there is no room for the sorts of compromise that peashooter carriers so willingly accept for the sake of their comfort.

As it happens I am a near 60 year old you call cornfed arthritic diabetic with severe edema and periferal neuropathy. I'm also a combat vet with two Purple Hearts. I carry my .45 in an Isreali surplus shoulder bag now that I'm retired but I used to carry it in my briefcase. Have you any idea how silly you sound when you say:

Quoted For Truth!

Well said, and THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

This old U.S. Army MP salutes you! Thanks for speaking the TRUTH, and having a PAIR!

When it comes down to the wire there is no room for the sorts of compromise that peashooter carriers so willingly accept for the sake of their comfort.

Amen, hallelujah! The First Commandment of Defensive Handgunnery:

Carry ENOUGH Gun!

That means a 9mm in semi-autos, and .38 Special in revolvers---and they're only the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. .45 ACP and .44 Special are my personal recommendations for those serious about defending themselves and their loved ones.

 

[Loosedhorse]

No real argument with prophet or Defensory, but...

I agree that .380 is not an ideal carry/SD caliber (can't remember the last time I carried it, but I'm sure I did.) But the OP said .380.

HPs and FMJs--for every scenario where the HP didn't penetrate, there's a scenario where the FMJ penetrated too much, or JUST MISSED that pulmonary artery because it didn't expand.

In my home, there are these secondary "backstops" (most people call them children) that tend not to stay put where you want them, so by philosophical choice--not logical superiority (there is none)--I have decided to prioritize preventing pass-throughs.

isp documents cases that suggest .380 HPs being defeated by fat rolls should be rare. But I'm sure it could happen. So I practice failure-to-stop drills. Even if I favored FMJs, I would have to practice failure to stop drills.

But in the end, it's all secondary to gun functioning (I'm going to want to put more than ONE .380 on target) and shot placement--as we've already agreed.

 

[EHL]

Quoted For Truth!

Well said, and THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

This old U.S. Army MP salutes you! Thanks for speaking the TRUTH, and having a PAIR!


Quote:
When it comes down to the wire there is no room for the sorts of compromise that peashooter carriers so willingly accept for the sake of their comfort.

Amen, hallelujah! The First Commandment of Defensive Handgunnery:

Carry ENOUGH Gun!

That means a 9mm in semi-autos, and .38 Special in revolvers---and they're only the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. .45 ACP and .44 Special are my personal recommendations for those serious about defending themselves and their loved ones.

Defensory, this is a thread about what .380 round any of us would advocate for SD. Your position that .380 is less than ideal is duly noted. For some reason you feel like it's your job to come in here and belittle anybody for even thinking a .380 might stop or kill an attacker.
Is it the greatest mankilling caliber ever??? Of course not, and you can see examples of many if not all posters commenting the same. In our opinion, is it enough for SD? Many of us believe it does meet the test, given good ammunition is used. If you feel otherwise, God bless you in your belief. You don't see us making fun of your beliefs. As I have stated before, many of us don't care for the 9mm pocket guns available. I personally don't like any fo them. It's sad that everytime somebody asks a question about what people recommend for use in a .380, there inevitably has to be two or three blowhards like you and krs that come in and have to give your "I hate .380 diatribes". Seriously, enough. There's a lot of threads on this forum with people who shoot .32 or even .25 caliber. I personally would never go that low in caliber for SD purposes, but I don't go in their threads just to sneer at them.
And I know that you guys use the argument that we all need larger calibers. My favorite pistols are my 1911's, I'm sure several of us that use .380's also love our 9mm, 40 SW, and 45 acps as much if not more than our .380s. But that doesn't mean that we don't use what is practical, safe, and concealable.
Look at some of the posts where the .380 round was used and the damage it caused.

One of our agents was working UC when the BG pulled out a gun. Our agent fired 1 rd from a PPK loaded with Silvertips. The rd hit the guy dead center in the sternum and lodged up against the guy's spine. There was no "sliding off the side betwen ribs and bounce around a bit" and no chipping.
On another situation we were making an entry into a room to arrest a subject when he opened up on us with a TEC-9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other. Both guns were loaded with FMJ. He then put the .380 to his head and fired 1 rd. The rd entered his skull just in front of his right upper ear. It exited behind the left upper ear. The rd then went thru the arm of an overstuffed chair. Continued on striking a wall, going thru over 1" of drywall at an angle, then hit a 2X4 stud where it lodged over 1/2 way in the stud. The skull is a lot harder than a sternum. It did more than crack his skull. It went thru both sides and kept on going. There was no sliding, chipping, or cracking of anything. Just punching a hole.
We had another agent who was wearing steel toed boots when he was shot once with a .380 loaded with FMJ. The rd drilled a nice neat hole thru the steel toe of his boot, thru his foot, thru the bottom of his boot, and thru the floor of the guy's house. We found the bullet in the basement. The rd didn't slide, chip, crack or dent anything. Just drilled a hole.

Yeah, sounds like the bullets coming out of this perps gun forgot they were .380's, huh?

Here in my area of central Texas, most CCW instructors are ex - LEOs . They almost always agree the 380 is the SD. minimum to consider . My SD pick for the 380 is the Bersa, and Fed. Hydra Shocks. Mine thinks it's a target pistol with this round. Would I rather have my 1911 ? yea , but with the accuracy of this round I feel OK. using it when a full 5 " 1911 just doesn't work out ,especially in hot weather.

I guess these Ex-LEO instructors need to be schooled by you and krs in order to understand the error of their ways huh?

Bootom line is, I respect your opinions and anybody elses who comes and disagrees with me or anyone else for that matter. In the future though, just do it with some class.

 

[Thernlund]

Bottom line is, I respect your opinions and anybody elses who comes and disagrees with me or anyone else for that matter. In the future though, just do it with some class.

Amen brother.

Now we should all get back on topic or stop. Yeah?

the naked prophet in post #110 made an excellent comment.

So... anyone have anything to add concerning the OP's question?


-T.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by EHL:
If you feel otherwise, God bless you in your belief. You don't see us making fun of your beliefs. As I have stated before, many of us don't care for the 9mm pocket guns available. I personally don't like any fo them. It's sad that everytime somebody asks a question about what people recommend for use in a .380, there inevitably has to be two or three blowhards like you and krs that come in and have to give your "I hate .380 diatribes"....Bootom line is, I respect your opinions and anybody elses who comes and disagrees with me or anyone else for that matter. In the future though, just do it with some class.

Attaboy!

That's the EHL we all know. EHL engages in namecalling, personal attacks, belittling people etc.---then turns right around and falsely accuses people of doing the very same things he does.

EHL needs to follow his own advice and try to show some class, because so far he's only proven his own hypocrisy.

Look at some of the posts where the .380 round was used and the damage it caused.

And you actually BELIEVE those cock 'n' bull stories?!

I'll take the proven research and experience of world renown experts like Massad Ayoob and Jeff Cooper, over undocumented bogus internet stories ANY DAY.

 

[isp2605]

I'll take the proven research and experience of world renown experts like Massad Ayoob and Jeff Cooper, over undocumented bogus internet stories ANY DAY.

Just remember one thing about so many of the "experts". The one thing about some of the experts is they've never been to an actual shooting situation, never actually done a shooting investigation, never attended an autopsy or hospital to retrieve the bullet from a shooting victim, have never seen or measured the actual bullet path thru the body, nor have the seen the actual results in person. All they've done is read the reports that the rest of us who have BTDT have written. They become experts by reading the investigations that we have done.

 

[JR47]

I'd submit that a person suffering from arthritis will not feel it at all if his or her life is about to end.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are many types of arthritis. The effects can range from temporary stiffness, to pain and swelling, all the way to permanent deformity and loss of bone density. To lump them all together is simply ludicrous. So is saying that adrenalin will allow someone who is in constant pain, and may suffer broken bones, should use, and therefore practice, with a "better caliber". Who are you people?

What caliber he/she chooses to carry, in the words of the same experts quoted here again and again, is determined by your skill levels, your ability to absorb recoil, and a host of other reasons. The .380 ACP that you can score hits with will ALWAYS beat the .45 ACP that you can't.

Off-body carry is a dishonest qualifier here. Speaking about those who carry firearms on their bodies, which the majority of CCW holders do, and carping about how they should up-gun, then revealing that one has, apparently, never carried on one's person is similarly dumb.

Perhaps one feels comfortable making sweeping pronunciations about what caliber should be used, and how they will feel if called upon to use it, but that really only shows how poorly they have thought out a situation.

All of us have made a decision to carry. Legally, caliber won't matter to the people looking into the shooting. In five years, the make and model of the gun, how much you practiced, the type of ammunition, and it's size won't be anything but a foot note in a forgotten file. They WILL, however, remember who won, and who lost (maybe).

Simplistic comments about caliber, or ammunition, and why people carry what mean nothing in the real world. Never mind the "experts", how many of these pompous know-it-alls have actually had to kill someone in a civilian upon civilian setting? All the gun in the world, coupled with pin-point accuracy, won't mean diddly if the shooter can't pull the trigger.

 

[The_Shootist]

Makarov?

Just curious but we hear a fair bit about the .380's suitability or otherwise for SD purposes. But how about a Makarov - maybe call it a .380+P.

Hornady appears to make a viable SD round for it, you have 8 rds in a flat, accurate, relentlessly reliable package and enough cheap plinking ammo around to stay in practice.

I'd be inclined to carry my Bulgy Mak before carrying a .380.

 

[jad0110]

Just curious but we hear a fair bit about the .380's suitability or otherwise for SD purposes. But how about a Makarov - maybe call it a .380+P.

On paper, 9x18 has a very slight advantage over 380, but I'd honestly call it a wash. It is worth noting that there is a greater number of JHP selection available for 380. If you are comfortable with your Mak and it is reliable with a good quality ammo that has sufficient penetration, I'd say go for it!

 

[EHL]

I'd be comfortable with a Mak myself, but I think .380 is a caliber that is easier to find your choice in ammunition with. So I'd stick with the .380. Wouldn't mind a Mak if it was a collectors piece though.

 

[jordan1948]

Personally I keep the SKS paratrooper with the 35rd mag loaded in the closet next to my bed and the .44mag carbine is actually in a recess in the bed

 

[LongRider]

Golden Saber is the best .380 round I could find, accurate, reliable consistent expansion. They do not make .380 HST One stop shots are a myth, they happen as a fluk not as a rule in any caliber. IMO .380 is a small round expect to empty your mag and reload

 

[Mr_Rogers]

I am perfectly happy carrying a 380.

Plus side:
Easier to conceal in summer clothing.
Accurate in a quality firearm.
Reliable in a quality firearm.
Adequate performance (and I don't want to get into the "Yeah, but what about if you run into a drug-crazed Yeti wearing body armor" argument.)

Downside:
Small magazine capacity when you might need every round.
The best 380s (IMHO the Sig ) have the relatively awkward Euro-style mag catch that slows reloading.

Because of the downsides you need appropriate ammunition. How about mixed rounds in a mag? I carry 2 rounds of HP (one will be in the chamber with the Sig or PPK) four rounds of solid and then two more HPs for a total of 8 rounds. The order of loading is purely arbitrary since there is no way of telling what situation you will be in on any particular day. Just make sure your chosen sequence feeds reliably.
Spare mags are loaded in the same way.

 

[krs]

Shootist,

I have a few boxes left of the Russian "Silver Bear" 9x18mm ammo that's loaded with a 120 grain JHP. I saw that another poster had done some accuracy testing using "Silver Bears" and saying that they were 115 gr JHP, so maybe they've changed since I bought the case I'm shooting from.

Either bullet is a fair jump up from the 90 -95 gr bullets commonly found in .380 and I can say from personal experience that the felt recoil when firing them from either one of my four EG Makarov pistols or from one of my two CZ-82 pistols is very much noticably sharper than either Remington HP or Wolf FMJ fired from either my Llama .380 or from one of my Colt 1903/08 .380 pistols, both of which are significantly lighter in weight than either the Makarovs of the CZ's and would, if ammo force were equal, recoil harder by virtue of their light weight and that guy's law of equal reaction.

So yes, a Makarov can be a more effective SD pistol to use than a .380 because of the availability of commercial ammo of larger bullet weight and because there is more space in the case for powder, the 9x18 being of some .009" larger diameter and a full millimeter longer.

For the fellow who claims that my shoulder bag is not on my person.........um, what? Where did my shoulder go? As to a briefcase being a slow draw, well, have a look at the briefcases available with designs for the use of pistols within and also consider that few pistols could be more available than one lying on top of the contents of an open case on a table in front of the owner.

Now for you all who trust in your popgun .380's - please know that I could care less how you arm yourself but I do enjoy to rattle such folks as can be driven to the point of calling me a blowhard in open forum. It is true though that I'd hate to see an account here of one of you ever having to face a situation in which your life depended on your pistol. Oh, right, I needn't worry about having to read something like that very much as it would necessarily be told in third person and this is the internet where we are all isolated one from another. There'd be noone who knew you and could tell the story of your disapearance.

Seriously, I do not believe that there is adequate reason for settling on that caliber. There are too many almost as easy to carry pistols which fire the certainly viable 9mm for that. I sometimes do carry .380 as my only protection and I always have amy Keltec .32 in my pocket. But it's not often........no, it's never the case that there isn't heavier weaponry within close reach. Sometimes not if I go into the post office, maybe not if I have a doctors appointment (way too often these days) but otherwise always very near to hand because I do not consider the little guys to be more than a delay device - something to allow me to reach something better.

A full reliance on a weak caliber is, IMO, what would be called a "career decision" if I were in the professional realm anymore. It's said about people who elect to say something or do something within their work sphere which can only hinder their advancement. The reliance on popguns is like that except instead of a promotion something more hangs in the balance. I WOULD hate to hear that the bad guys won one over any of us because of a poor choice of protective device. OK?

 

[Mr_Rogers]

I was shooting with a Sheriff's department firearms instructor once. We were both using my Sig 230SL. I made some joking remark about mouse guns and he very seriously, replied "You can't believe how many people I've seen dead from a 380".