Assuming there is a burglar that wants to kill/injure my family, what do you think would (generally) be more likely to be a 1-hit stopper (by means of a shot in the chest), .380 FMJ, or .380 HP, or .380 softpoint? I've been told the HP/softpoint won't penetrate too much, because of it's lack of oomph. Also, will a FMJ mushroom with enough resistance (tissue), aside from very hard targets (steel, metals, concrete)? Thanks.
.380 question.
- Thread starter john917v
- Start date
- Status
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
FMJ will not mushroom at all, in any caliber, and will make more of an ice-pick wound.
The .380 JHP will do the most tissue damage.
Neither one can be depended on to make a "One-Shot Stop".
In fact, no handgun can.
You need to keep shooting until you run out of ammo, or the BG goes down, whichever happens first.
rcmodel
The .380 JHP will do the most tissue damage.
Neither one can be depended on to make a "One-Shot Stop".
In fact, no handgun can.
You need to keep shooting until you run out of ammo, or the BG goes down, whichever happens first.
rcmodel
James T Thomas
Member
380 answer
I believe the depth of penetration reqired to pierce the heart; direct -on, is approximately three inches.
It may be that the hollow point will "mushroom," expand, etc. while passing through the sternum {breast bone} or even a rib, and not give the needed penetration. "Not to mention coat or jacket fabric, side shots, hand in the line of fire, and that kind of thing." In effect, you have shot your assailant with a lead nickel.
With the 380; go with full metal jacket ammo.
Striking one of the heart chambers instead of muscular wall or septum tissue may cause death within a minute or perhaps loss of enough blood to produce a loss of consciousness; a feint in even less time.
I know, the less time is what you are looking for.
Any time corrections from MD, LPN, Para Meds?
I believe the depth of penetration reqired to pierce the heart; direct -on, is approximately three inches.
It may be that the hollow point will "mushroom," expand, etc. while passing through the sternum {breast bone} or even a rib, and not give the needed penetration. "Not to mention coat or jacket fabric, side shots, hand in the line of fire, and that kind of thing." In effect, you have shot your assailant with a lead nickel.
With the 380; go with full metal jacket ammo.
Striking one of the heart chambers instead of muscular wall or septum tissue may cause death within a minute or perhaps loss of enough blood to produce a loss of consciousness; a feint in even less time.
I know, the less time is what you are looking for.
Any time corrections from MD, LPN, Para Meds?
ZeSpectre
Member
Okay class, repeat after me...
ONE SHOT STOP IS A FANTASY CREATED BY HOLLYWOOD TO ALLOW THEM TO MOVE THE PLOT ALONG QUICKLY.
There is a chance that you can get a one shot stop with any caliber but is is very very small and counting on it could cost you your life! Far more common is the shot that takes 1-5 minutes to disable the target. You do know how much can happen in 30 seconds so imagine what 5+ minutes could contain.
ONE SHOT STOP IS A FANTASY CREATED BY HOLLYWOOD TO ALLOW THEM TO MOVE THE PLOT ALONG QUICKLY.
There is a chance that you can get a one shot stop with any caliber but is is very very small and counting on it could cost you your life! Far more common is the shot that takes 1-5 minutes to disable the target. You do know how much can happen in 30 seconds so imagine what 5+ minutes could contain.
Thernlund
Member
I've heard that Golden Sabers are best for .380s. However, I look at it like this... If the bullet expands, great. If not, then it's pretty much a non-hollowpoint.
A .380 could be a one-hit stopper if you place it where it needs to be. Generally the weaker the caliber the narrower your margin of error in shot placement is. But if you can put one in his eye socket or neck, hardly matters what you're shooting.
A .22 can be (and has been) used in successful self defense. Learn to shoot and your caliber and bullet type of choice will matter less.
And... you can always ride that thing to slide lock.
-T.
A .380 could be a one-hit stopper if you place it where it needs to be. Generally the weaker the caliber the narrower your margin of error in shot placement is. But if you can put one in his eye socket or neck, hardly matters what you're shooting.
A .22 can be (and has been) used in successful self defense. Learn to shoot and your caliber and bullet type of choice will matter less.
And... you can always ride that thing to slide lock.
-T.
I count on a .380 for self defense. I don't count on a one shot stop, even though they are possible. My daily carry is a PPK with FMJs, and my home defense piece is a Cobray M12 with a 30 round magazine. It's comforting knowing that if you aren't effective with the first round there are 29 more.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
You need to shoot something with a .380 sometime.
There is no way the sternum is going to keep one from making it to the heart on a frontal shot.
rcmodel
I agree. .380 is more than enough for a self defense situation. Is it the ideal caliber? No. But put one or two, three holes in the chest of any BG with it and I will be stunned if he can stay on his feet. If three holes fail, I've still got the rest of the magazine to get the job done. I'd still stick with JHP's for self defense though. Shot placement is key.
James T Thomas
Member
rehash
rcm:
You're right; in that I have never shot something, like game, with a 380.
I just think that a rabbit's sternum; even those big Jack rabbits, are not equivalent to the human bone. Perhaps a deer.
Have you shot a deer or bear in that bone with the 380 and can state how it went? I'm interested in your experience.
I have had my sternum sawed with a jig saw, full length, however, and the surgeon said they are tough.
A 90 grain projectile at those velocities looses some of it's energy surely, while passing through such bone.
What I do know is this. Should the bullet expand, partially even, then it has lost it's meager sectional density. It did not have much to begin with.
After expansion, or during, for that matter, the little shank that it does have, which is necessary for that s.d, is consumed and transformed into the flat slug I referred to as a lead nickel. If that occurs in the first few inches of penetration, that is the end of it. The slug will come to an abrupt stop.
EHL: From what I know of it, putting the holes into the chest of a BG is very dynamic and frightening and requires nerves of steel. That is, during a rapid assault and accompanying gunfire in your direction -simultaneously.
I've placed several rounds of my ammo into the bullseye in rapid fire myself, and it was gratifying. But I know that what I have done was target shooting and not real world self defense.
Shot placement is the key, but getting them into a moving, return firing
"keyhole" is more diffucult than most people think.
rcm:
You're right; in that I have never shot something, like game, with a 380.
I just think that a rabbit's sternum; even those big Jack rabbits, are not equivalent to the human bone. Perhaps a deer.
Have you shot a deer or bear in that bone with the 380 and can state how it went? I'm interested in your experience.
I have had my sternum sawed with a jig saw, full length, however, and the surgeon said they are tough.
A 90 grain projectile at those velocities looses some of it's energy surely, while passing through such bone.
What I do know is this. Should the bullet expand, partially even, then it has lost it's meager sectional density. It did not have much to begin with.
After expansion, or during, for that matter, the little shank that it does have, which is necessary for that s.d, is consumed and transformed into the flat slug I referred to as a lead nickel. If that occurs in the first few inches of penetration, that is the end of it. The slug will come to an abrupt stop.
EHL: From what I know of it, putting the holes into the chest of a BG is very dynamic and frightening and requires nerves of steel. That is, during a rapid assault and accompanying gunfire in your direction -simultaneously.
I've placed several rounds of my ammo into the bullseye in rapid fire myself, and it was gratifying. But I know that what I have done was target shooting and not real world self defense.
Shot placement is the key, but getting them into a moving, return firing
"keyhole" is more diffucult than most people think.
Drgong
Member
Himm, is the 9x18 makarov (slightly higher power) better to do FMJ or JHP for defense?
KiltedClaymore
Member
layer. FMJ, HP,FMJ,HP, ect.
shock and penetration together.
shock and penetration together.
deaconkharma
Member
http://www.scsolicitor9.org/Shooting.htm
took this guy a long while to die. I think they had to shoot him again because he was getting up.
http://www.charleston.net/audioclips/35/
took this guy a long while to die. I think they had to shoot him again because he was getting up.
http://www.charleston.net/audioclips/35/
Last edited:
If you ever watch those shows on A&E "The First 48" and "Crime 360" there have been many DOA's shot with the lowly .380. Those shows are not dramatized, they are actual inside look of the homicide investigations (edited of course). "Crime 360" also takes you with them to the coroners office where they show the x-rays of the wounds and the offending projectiles usually still inside the victims and their path of travel. Very interesting.
browningguy
Member
I like the Corbon round also, and I don't feel undergunned when I carry my Bersa .380. It's not a grown up gun like my .40 BHP's, but it will do the job, as proven over several decades of use by military andpolice departments around the world.
george29
Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,670
Agreed, but about 20 years ago a special forces officer was killed by a terrorist that he shot with his FN Mark III, the terrorist still killed him with a knife as the soldier was bent over in his attempt to verify the downed subject. There is no such thing as a one stop shot, one shoots until there is no longer a threat and then one keeps the perp covered until the cavalry arrives. In the above case, the officer worked alone, was over-confident and assumed that he controlled the situation. The poor guy was killed in his early twenties, was highly skilled and used a powerful enough round to do the job, the perp bled out but the facts are they are both pushing up daisies and that is unacceptable. I'm not saying you need to give a coup de grâce (which is illegal) but the experts all agree; shoot from cover, don't expose yourself needlessly and keep shooting until the criminal has stopped his criminal behavior (the attack) or has been stopped. Never approach a downed adversary, he may be playing possum, and last, I applaud you for your confidence in being able to properly defend your family with such a weak caliber. Me, I defend my home with bolted metal doors, two dogs and a .44, 12 gauge and .308 and still feel like I may be undergunned if more than one guy gets in simultaneously.
The 380 is great for CCW and not finding trouble, not the best choice for self defense especially when one can use a rifle / shotgun in the house as a first choice.
Thernlund
Member
george29 said:
Self Defense and Home Defense are two different things.
-T.
I have a few guns in 380. I like them for various reasons; the Kel-tec for its concealability, the PPK because James Bond carried one, and the Colt Govt model because of its compactness and dead on accuracy and it is ultimately reliable. The only ammo I would rely on is the 85-90 GRN GD JHP, and then only for a head, pelvic or spine shot. The 380 is noted more for the small guns available in it than its stopping power. It is the absolutely smallest round that I feel can be relied upon for SD. These days you can get a 9MM in a package that is amost as small.
If you want a one shot stop, get a 12 gauge with buck or slugs.
If you want a one shot stop, get a 12 gauge with buck or slugs.
The one-shot stop, while at times unlikely, is not a fantasy, or legend. Otherwise, all guns would have 2 barrels that fired simultaneously, or a 2-shot burst. Note I stated "Most likely to be a 1-hit stopper", not a "surefire 1-hit stopper"
I don't have a .380, but am trying to see if it would be an ideal handgun caliber for me.
I do have a Maverick 12-ga with buck for the first 3, and a slug for the 4th.
But, the general consensus seems to be that a JHP would be your best bet, so I'll choose that when I get one, unless I shoot another caliber that I like more, that is available in a small-framed firearm.
I don't have a .380, but am trying to see if it would be an ideal handgun caliber for me.
I do have a Maverick 12-ga with buck for the first 3, and a slug for the 4th.
But, the general consensus seems to be that a JHP would be your best bet, so I'll choose that when I get one, unless I shoot another caliber that I like more, that is available in a small-framed firearm.
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
NOTHING is oneshot stop. I love .380 but it is a defense caliber, not a offense caliber (think about it for a minute, there is a difference).
With .380, dark, guy coming in, I would have two mags (one in, one in pocket). Dump the damn mag into the guy, load and keep firing as necessary. Mousegun calibers are fine for defense, but everyone seems to be looking for the super round from James Bond that will turn a PPK (or that clone in their dresser) into the Golden Gun. No such thing. However, compensate with lower power rounds with alot more onto target. Practice shot placement and pointshooting (particularly in the dark).
BTW: When would someone ever come up with something cool for .380s, like night sights for the Bersa?
With .380, dark, guy coming in, I would have two mags (one in, one in pocket). Dump the damn mag into the guy, load and keep firing as necessary. Mousegun calibers are fine for defense, but everyone seems to be looking for the super round from James Bond that will turn a PPK (or that clone in their dresser) into the Golden Gun. No such thing. However, compensate with lower power rounds with alot more onto target. Practice shot placement and pointshooting (particularly in the dark).
BTW: When would someone ever come up with something cool for .380s, like night sights for the Bersa?
jjohnson
Member
I think the 380 could do the job
Yeah, defense is a keyword.
I don't think a sternum would likely stop a .380 slug. Human bone takes, what, 12-21 pounds per square inch to break? 380's not my favorite caliber at all, but if that's what you have, practice with it so you can hit multiple times and get good hollowpoint ammo. I carry HP because the FMJ can overpenetrate and go places you don't want it to go (like through walls) but the HP causes greater wounding.
Of course, I like the other post that suggested a 12 gauge. If the 380 is all you've got, though, you're not exactly defenseless.
Yeah, defense is a keyword.
I don't think a sternum would likely stop a .380 slug. Human bone takes, what, 12-21 pounds per square inch to break? 380's not my favorite caliber at all, but if that's what you have, practice with it so you can hit multiple times and get good hollowpoint ammo. I carry HP because the FMJ can overpenetrate and go places you don't want it to go (like through walls) but the HP causes greater wounding.
Of course, I like the other post that suggested a 12 gauge. If the 380 is all you've got, though, you're not exactly defenseless.
JR47
Member
There are recorded instances of 12 ga. slugs not stopping people. So what?
Shoot until the threat is gone. Why would you lean over a bad guy after shooting him? Stay away, that's the EMT's job. If you have to remove their weapon, do so from as safe a venue as possible. In a self-defense scenario, whether the guy you shot is dead, or unconscious, matters little, as long as they stop their assault. If they wake up, they'll be laying on the ground, and you'll have them covered.
.380 ACP is usually considered the minimum caliber for self-defense. As long as it's approached with that in mind, it stands a chance of working. Some of us seem to feel that only a full-power .44 Magnum MIGHT let us survive an encounter, as anything else will fail miserably.
Shoot until the threat is gone. Why would you lean over a bad guy after shooting him? Stay away, that's the EMT's job. If you have to remove their weapon, do so from as safe a venue as possible. In a self-defense scenario, whether the guy you shot is dead, or unconscious, matters little, as long as they stop their assault. If they wake up, they'll be laying on the ground, and you'll have them covered.
.380 ACP is usually considered the minimum caliber for self-defense. As long as it's approached with that in mind, it stands a chance of working. Some of us seem to feel that only a full-power .44 Magnum MIGHT let us survive an encounter, as anything else will fail miserably.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
It is interesting to note that the standard service pistol cartridge of the entire communist world, for almost half a century, was the 9 x 18 Makarov.
Which is nothing more then a very slightly more powerful .380 ACP.
Surely, if it was incapable of ending a fight, or penetrating a bone, they would have changed to a more powerful round long ago when it was found lacking.
rcmodel
Which is nothing more then a very slightly more powerful .380 ACP.
Surely, if it was incapable of ending a fight, or penetrating a bone, they would have changed to a more powerful round long ago when it was found lacking.
rcmodel
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
