.380 question.
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You might consider alternating rounds in your .380 with a JHP in the chamber, then a FMJ then a JHP, and so on. If the JHP won't destroy enough tissue to take the aggressor out of the fight, then perhaps the FMJ will penetrate a lung and create a pneumothorax. You might also consider the drill of putting two shots in the chest, followed by one in the head (the Mozambique?). If the .380 ACP can't be counted on to deliver a sure stop with 2 rounds to the chest, perhaps it can addle the aggressor long enough for the defender to take careful aim and turn off the electricity with a brain shot.
Supertac45
Member
I wouldn't use one as a primary weapon.
JR47
Member
Looking back, the MILITARY caliber of a number of European countries was the .32 ACP, or the .380 ACP. The French used the 7.5 Longue, that is about .32 S&W power.
The issue handgun of pilots was the .38 Special, with a 130 gr. FMJ bullet.
Yet, all of these killed any number of people. Despite their "anemic" properties.
The issue handgun of pilots was the .38 Special, with a 130 gr. FMJ bullet.
Yet, all of these killed any number of people. Despite their "anemic" properties.
Smaug
Member
I'm in the minority I'm sure, but I just sold my Ruger P90 and replaced it with a Bersa Thunder 380.
There is such a thing as a one-shot stop. It has been studied in-depth. The #1 thing is to put the bullet in the magic triangle; whose three points are shoulders and solar plexus.
Next is to have a big round, so you're more likely to hit something vital.
Spine and head shots are one shot stops most of the time.
Back to the gun: 380 is handier, and just as accurate at any combat range within my house. I'm also confident that my wife can shoot it well, and that I can shoot it well with my weak hand.
Mine's stoked with FMJs, but just because I haven't bought JHPs for it yet.
JHPs may not expand, but they're also not going to get smaller, and will always be at least as big as the FMJ.
There is such a thing as a one-shot stop. It has been studied in-depth. The #1 thing is to put the bullet in the magic triangle; whose three points are shoulders and solar plexus.
Next is to have a big round, so you're more likely to hit something vital.
Spine and head shots are one shot stops most of the time.
Back to the gun: 380 is handier, and just as accurate at any combat range within my house. I'm also confident that my wife can shoot it well, and that I can shoot it well with my weak hand.
Mine's stoked with FMJs, but just because I haven't bought JHPs for it yet.
JHPs may not expand, but they're also not going to get smaller, and will always be at least as big as the FMJ.
jad0110
Member
hoosier8 said:
That is most likely the round I'd carry if I had a .380. Good penetration, and the possibility of expansion is a nice bonus.
Depending on the outside temperature though, I might lean towards FMJ if potential BGs might be bundled up with a lot of layers.
john197v said:
There's your primary HD gun right there!
Though I will say that a small handgun is nice to have on yourself that is immediately accessible. Especially if you have to keep your other guns locked up because of small children. Right now, I have a S&W 642 in my pocket, if God forbid it hits the fan right now.
krs
Member
If no caliber recoiled and all pistols were the same size and weight nobody would consider a .380.
We have endless requests by people who feel that they want to carry a pistol but they don't want their pistol to change or interfere with their habits of dress or activity.
There is no answer. Your assailant is an unknown. No amount of reassuring posts will make him stop.
We have endless requests by people who feel that they want to carry a pistol but they don't want their pistol to change or interfere with their habits of dress or activity.
There is no answer. Your assailant is an unknown. No amount of reassuring posts will make him stop.
One of the long-time mods here (whoever you are, take a bow), said it best:
ALL HANDGUNS SUCK.
Your handgun exists to enable you to fight your way to a rifle or a shotgun. I have, and carry, a .45, a 9mm, a .380, and a .38spl revolver (um, but not all at once...
) For each of them I have either multiple mags or several speedloaders when I carry them. But at night, especially in a home invasion event, my job is to provide cover while my husband gets his 12 gauge.
My .380 is sometimes my carry gun, particularly when I need to be carrying something lighter weight than a compact 1911 or an XD-9 (women's clothing tends to lighter weight fabrics, which means a lighter gun is easier to conceal). There has only been one time that I realized it would not be enough, and that was a recent event where a trio of young men on the prowl were pacing me in their pickup as I walked my dogs around my block late at night. I did the math (only had the gun with the one mag in it with me at the time) and realized that 8 rounds divided by 3 guys was not my favorite math equation. I can shoot that little gun very well indeed, and have no doubt I'd have hit them at the distance they were from me were they to pile out and come at me. But slide lock would have come awfully soon, and I was betting on two-shot-stops in that case. IOW, the issue was that a "one-shot stop" was an awfully big gamble.
That gave me pause. The XD-9, with it's 13 rounds per mag, now goes with me on late night dog walks, and hang the weight and the bulkiness. But stop and think: we're talking about the same bullet size here. The 9mm just has a larger case (and different loading) but most people accept that a 9 is an acceptable defensive round. But whether the .355" bullet comes out of a Bersa .380 or an XD-9, betting that only ONE of them is necessary is probably not wise. You may get lucky, but if you don't, the consequences are not what you want.
There are no one-shot stops except in TV. Either have several mags of .380 available, or let it get you to a shotgun or a carbine with hollowpoint ammo.
Springmom
ALL HANDGUNS SUCK.
Your handgun exists to enable you to fight your way to a rifle or a shotgun. I have, and carry, a .45, a 9mm, a .380, and a .38spl revolver (um, but not all at once...
) For each of them I have either multiple mags or several speedloaders when I carry them. But at night, especially in a home invasion event, my job is to provide cover while my husband gets his 12 gauge. My .380 is sometimes my carry gun, particularly when I need to be carrying something lighter weight than a compact 1911 or an XD-9 (women's clothing tends to lighter weight fabrics, which means a lighter gun is easier to conceal). There has only been one time that I realized it would not be enough, and that was a recent event where a trio of young men on the prowl were pacing me in their pickup as I walked my dogs around my block late at night. I did the math (only had the gun with the one mag in it with me at the time) and realized that 8 rounds divided by 3 guys was not my favorite math equation. I can shoot that little gun very well indeed, and have no doubt I'd have hit them at the distance they were from me were they to pile out and come at me. But slide lock would have come awfully soon, and I was betting on two-shot-stops in that case. IOW, the issue was that a "one-shot stop" was an awfully big gamble.
That gave me pause. The XD-9, with it's 13 rounds per mag, now goes with me on late night dog walks, and hang the weight and the bulkiness. But stop and think: we're talking about the same bullet size here. The 9mm just has a larger case (and different loading) but most people accept that a 9 is an acceptable defensive round. But whether the .355" bullet comes out of a Bersa .380 or an XD-9, betting that only ONE of them is necessary is probably not wise. You may get lucky, but if you don't, the consequences are not what you want.
There are no one-shot stops except in TV. Either have several mags of .380 available, or let it get you to a shotgun or a carbine with hollowpoint ammo.
Springmom
There IS such a thing as a one-shot-stop. If the brain, brainstem, or spinal cord is disrupted or stunned, the voluntary muscular activity stops approximately below the level of the injury. Right then. To count on that happening is not wise, IMHO. Try for it, certainly, but keep shooting until the threat is no longer threatening.
Single (or even multiple) shots to the lung, abdomen (including liver or kidneys) or even heart or major thoracic arteries is NOT necessarily immediately disabling. The BG might only have seconds of concious activity left (in the case of complete destruction of the heart stopping all effective blood flow), but the 10 seconds left to him/her can be enough to get you shot or cut.
That said, regardless of caliber, shoot until the threat is down, then get away. Do not mess w/ their weapon or check the extent of their injuries. Get clear and call 911 if it has not already been done.
Corbon ammo in the 380 is capable of the penetration and expansion you want to maximize the chance of a quick stop. Applied correctly, the other choices you listed could also do it, maybe just a little more iffy, due to either decreased expansion (FMJ) or lower velocity. The best chance of a one shot stop with any handgun caliber placed in the chest would be disruption or stunning of the spinal cord after sufficient penetration, disruption, and energy transfer.
As pointed out, 10 seconds is a LONG time in a fight.
My opinions. Worth exactly what you have paid for them.
Steve
Single (or even multiple) shots to the lung, abdomen (including liver or kidneys) or even heart or major thoracic arteries is NOT necessarily immediately disabling. The BG might only have seconds of concious activity left (in the case of complete destruction of the heart stopping all effective blood flow), but the 10 seconds left to him/her can be enough to get you shot or cut.
That said, regardless of caliber, shoot until the threat is down, then get away. Do not mess w/ their weapon or check the extent of their injuries. Get clear and call 911 if it has not already been done.
Corbon ammo in the 380 is capable of the penetration and expansion you want to maximize the chance of a quick stop. Applied correctly, the other choices you listed could also do it, maybe just a little more iffy, due to either decreased expansion (FMJ) or lower velocity. The best chance of a one shot stop with any handgun caliber placed in the chest would be disruption or stunning of the spinal cord after sufficient penetration, disruption, and energy transfer.
As pointed out, 10 seconds is a LONG time in a fight.
My opinions. Worth exactly what you have paid for them.
Steve
Crazy Fingers
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I really think that some of you don't give handguns the credit that they deserve. Are they a .300 Mag? No. Are they as lethal as a shotgun? No. But they are definitely a force to be reckoned with, and there are many people in graves right now because of them.
If I had 13 rounds of .380, especially stuff like Cor-Bon, I would not feel undergunned against anyone I'm likely to meet on the street. I shoot my .380 very well. Don't forget that the weaker the caliber, the easier it is to control, and the quicker you can fill someone's chest with lead.
If I had 13 rounds of .380, especially stuff like Cor-Bon, I would not feel undergunned against anyone I'm likely to meet on the street. I shoot my .380 very well. Don't forget that the weaker the caliber, the easier it is to control, and the quicker you can fill someone's chest with lead.
James T Thomas
Member
say it again Sam
I have reviewed my posts; #4 and #11, and would like to state what I had tried to explain in another way.
I did not say that a 380 round could not penetrate through the sternum or bone for that matter.
Here it is. The hollow point round we are discussing; the 380, would most likely deform, expand or "mushroom" -upon passing through these dense structure, rather than other anatomy.
Once that 90 or 102 grain pill has passed through, and if then it is in an expanded state, all of the "stem or stalk or shank" of that bullet has been consumed into the flattened slug. Therefore it now has an even lesser sectional density than before. And therefore, penetration will cease with little more travel.
Also, with reference to post #11. Please think again about "placing several rounds" in that vital spot of a moveing -shooting assailant, and emptying your high capacity magazine! Any one can empty out a magazine.
It's implied by that phrase that you have achieved vital hits each and every round you fired emptying.
When in reality; I'm sorry, it sounds cynical, but
you will most likely only have exhausted your ammo.
Not to be argumentative, but I hope to add some realism for your sake.
I have reviewed my posts; #4 and #11, and would like to state what I had tried to explain in another way.
I did not say that a 380 round could not penetrate through the sternum or bone for that matter.
Here it is. The hollow point round we are discussing; the 380, would most likely deform, expand or "mushroom" -upon passing through these dense structure, rather than other anatomy.
Once that 90 or 102 grain pill has passed through, and if then it is in an expanded state, all of the "stem or stalk or shank" of that bullet has been consumed into the flattened slug. Therefore it now has an even lesser sectional density than before. And therefore, penetration will cease with little more travel.
Also, with reference to post #11. Please think again about "placing several rounds" in that vital spot of a moveing -shooting assailant, and emptying your high capacity magazine! Any one can empty out a magazine.
It's implied by that phrase that you have achieved vital hits each and every round you fired emptying.
When in reality; I'm sorry, it sounds cynical, but
you will most likely only have exhausted your ammo.
Not to be argumentative, but I hope to add some realism for your sake.
I carry a Ruger LCP and I load it exclusively with Santa Barbara 88gr open tip non-expanding truncated cone FMJ.
Some testing performed over at KTOG on this old 1982/1983 Spanish ammunition identified some wild variations in velocity, but my own testing has shown it to be 100% reliable and very, very hot loaded for .380ACP, the recoil impulse is huge compared to other commercial loadings.
One thing is for sure, regardless of angle of presentation, if I ever have to use this round for self defence, something is going to have a hole all the way through it, and in .380, that's what I'm looking for.
JHP just doesn't make sense to me in this caliber, but if I absolutely had to, the choice would be 102gr Rem Golden Saber.
Some testing performed over at KTOG on this old 1982/1983 Spanish ammunition identified some wild variations in velocity, but my own testing has shown it to be 100% reliable and very, very hot loaded for .380ACP, the recoil impulse is huge compared to other commercial loadings.
One thing is for sure, regardless of angle of presentation, if I ever have to use this round for self defence, something is going to have a hole all the way through it, and in .380, that's what I'm looking for.
JHP just doesn't make sense to me in this caliber, but if I absolutely had to, the choice would be 102gr Rem Golden Saber.
moooose102
Member
i load my 380 with alternating winchester silvertip hollow points and fmj's. as stated earlier, a 1 shot stop is unlikely with most pistols, and a combination of projectiles should help to create penetration, and hydraulic shock. at least that is the plan. only way to really tell, would be an actual shooting. and i pray that never happens.
Yes, we know. I think everyone is making the point that there's no way to guarantee before the fact that one will have either the opportunity, ability or luck required to get a bullet into those areas.SWDoc said:
Gunfights aren't executions, they're a bloody mess.
That's not fair to use a simple quote like that. We don't know what the circumstances are behind those shootings with the .380. Perhaps the perps were shot in the arms or leg? There is no dispute that a .380 is not THE most powerful round available, but for SD and with proper shot placement (i.e. not just emptying a magazine and making no hits) a perp would more than likely be incapacitated/slowed down enough for you to: A. run away, B. Reload, C. call the police, D. pray for Divine intervention, etc..... There have been many people killed by the lowly .380 to prove it's ability to kill/drop perps. I would consider it the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM in an SD round though, given that you end up giving up so much mass and speed for the trade off of concealability. I wouldn't recommend it for home defense, way too many better options, but for concealed carry I would highly recommend it due to it's concealability.
There's nothing "unfair" about the quotation I provided. There's nothing taken out of context.
Massad Ayoob is considered by many to be the world's leading authority on handgun self-defense. His findings based on a lifetime of experience and research are invaluable, and are far more credible and reliable than your anecdotal proclamations.
Bottom line---the .380 is NOT a reliable man-stopper. Never has been, never will be.
Massad Ayoob is considered by many to be the world's leading authority on handgun self-defense. His findings based on a lifetime of experience and research are invaluable, and are far more credible and reliable than your anecdotal proclamations.
Bottom line---the .380 is NOT a reliable man-stopper. Never has been, never will be.
tawcat
Member
Just my .02 cents worth
I carry almost exclusively a Ruger LCP. My only concern has been the huge discussion of what ammo works and what doesn't. At present I carry it ready to rock and roll loaded with JHP's, soon to change out that ammo to Buffalo Bore FMJ-FN's.
I am a believer in the "one shot, one kill" philosophy and have no doubt that a .380 will bring a BG down quickly. I also have adopted the "don't stop shooting, til he stops coming" philosophy!!!!
You can have the biggest gun in the world, but if you can't hit your target, you can only hope the BG drops dead out of sheer surprise and fright when your gun goes bang!
Carry what you feel comfortable with and practice, practice, practice.
I carry almost exclusively a Ruger LCP. My only concern has been the huge discussion of what ammo works and what doesn't. At present I carry it ready to rock and roll loaded with JHP's, soon to change out that ammo to Buffalo Bore FMJ-FN's.
I am a believer in the "one shot, one kill" philosophy and have no doubt that a .380 will bring a BG down quickly. I also have adopted the "don't stop shooting, til he stops coming" philosophy!!!!
You can have the biggest gun in the world, but if you can't hit your target, you can only hope the BG drops dead out of sheer surprise and fright when your gun goes bang!
Carry what you feel comfortable with and practice, practice, practice.
XDKingslayer
member
Are you sure? All the posts here make me think that .380 cases are loaded with sugar and puppy dogs not gunpowder...
Bravo Defensory!!! What a great argument. You accept this one statement to be the end all-be all of God's great truth about the .380 acp. I know who Ayoob is, don't patronize me. There are many authorities that consider the minimal caliber for SD to be the .380. So rather than pulling out a ruler and measuring who's expert is "bigger", let's just agree to disagree.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
.380 power level?
I own a .380acp BDA, a 9X18 Mak (replaced my BDA for CCW and my .357 Ruger for bedpost gun) a 9mm Para S&W and a .357mag. I've shot them into wood pallets (usually oak and/or gum) I propped up to use as target stands enough to know that I don't want to be on the business end of any of 'em. the .380 HP's I load usually come apart on impact with the hardwood. lead cast slugs that I load sort of low-power for practice in .380 burrow in and deform a good bit.
don't forget that W.B. Hickok used a .36 Colt for his shootings, approx. .380 - 9Mak power level. but then he specialized in brain and heart shots - that's why he was so deadly - and feared by all, even John Hardin backed away from him.
I could be talked out of my .380 BDA if anyone is interested. nice handgun, slickety-clickety.PM if interested.
I own a .380acp BDA, a 9X18 Mak (replaced my BDA for CCW and my .357 Ruger for bedpost gun) a 9mm Para S&W and a .357mag. I've shot them into wood pallets (usually oak and/or gum) I propped up to use as target stands enough to know that I don't want to be on the business end of any of 'em. the .380 HP's I load usually come apart on impact with the hardwood. lead cast slugs that I load sort of low-power for practice in .380 burrow in and deform a good bit.
don't forget that W.B. Hickok used a .36 Colt for his shootings, approx. .380 - 9Mak power level. but then he specialized in brain and heart shots - that's why he was so deadly - and feared by all, even John Hardin backed away from him.
I could be talked out of my .380 BDA if anyone is interested. nice handgun, slickety-clickety.PM if interested.
the naked prophet
Member
The problem is not that a JHP may not expand, the problem is that if it does expand, it does not penetrate far enough.
The FBI put forth in its report on Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness that in order to be effective at stopping a fight, a handgun bullet must penetrate at least 12 inches of ballistic gelatin, and expansion is desirable.
That's 12 inches of gelatin, not flesh. Human skin is approximately equal to 3-4 inches of gelatin. Bones will slow it down even more. Where you're wanting to hit (the thoracic triangle - triangle between the nipples and base of the throat) has a lot of bones. And the target is unlikely to be standing directly square to you.
A JHP bullet which expands will crush a larger swath of tissue as it penetrates. So, if the bullet can expand and still penetrate at least 12 inches of gelatin, it's good.
The problem is that no .380 that I've seen, and I've done the research (some loads come tantalizingly close in some tests - but on other tests fall far short), can reliably penetrate 12 inches of gelatin after expanding. Many are reliable expanders - and if you manage to hit between the ribs on a direct frontal shot you're likely to hit the vitals - but unless the shot is ideal, it's likely to stop before reaching anything vital.
If you are limited to the .380 caliber, either by financial or other situations, it is best to use a FMJ load for defense (in my opinion). I would rather put a .35 inch hole in the bad guys lung than put a .46 inch hole in the bad guys fat and muscle.
The difference between 9mm and .380 may seem small, but that little extra bit makes a big difference. This is why: The 9mm has a larger case, and is loaded to higher pressure. The case can accommodate a heavier bullet - which is likely to penetrate deeper. The heavier bullets also pushed much faster by the higher pressure- which is likely to make expansion more reliable. The combination of deeper penetration and more reliable (and larger) expansion make the 9mm a decent choice for personal defense - in the home or out and about. A larger caliber will increase these advantages - but a less powerful caliber "falls off the cliff" of effectiveness, so to speak.
Hope that is helpful.
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Thernlund
Member
the naked prophet said:
While I see do see exactly what you're talking about, to the uneducated (or someone like me who reads quickly), your statement almost implies that the bullet moves faster by virtue of it being heavy.
So for clarification, heavier bullets want to move slower. But the 9mm is a hotter load than .380 which pushes the heavier bullet faster.
As a side note: If the .380 could accomodate a 115gr bullet and enough power to push said bullet at 1200 ft/sec, this discussion would be moot I think.
Of course, the gun would probably explode in your hand.
-T.
Smaug
Member
The only thing wrong with the Ayoob quote above is that the higher end 380 loads are at the same power levels as 38 Special. So if 38 Special is enough, how could 380 ACP not be?
I suppose 38 Specials can launch a heavier bullet...
The most important thing about 380s is that you are more likely to have them, because they are so handy. Just having a gun gives you a high chance of a "zero-shot stop." Let's face it, we are not cops chasing herion addicts. (most of us aren't, at least) We are people defending ourselves from folks who are looking for easy prey. Having a gun and letting the attacker know that, lets him know you aren't easy. Just like putting The Club on your steering wheel. Why would he bother with that car, when there are other cars (people) who are not protected? (armed)
I suppose 38 Specials can launch a heavier bullet...
The most important thing about 380s is that you are more likely to have them, because they are so handy. Just having a gun gives you a high chance of a "zero-shot stop." Let's face it, we are not cops chasing herion addicts. (most of us aren't, at least) We are people defending ourselves from folks who are looking for easy prey. Having a gun and letting the attacker know that, lets him know you aren't easy. Just like putting The Club on your steering wheel. Why would he bother with that car, when there are other cars (people) who are not protected? (armed)
Thernlund
Member
It's all about foot-pounds. In that regard, the .380 is rather weak (200ft/lbs or so). The .38 Special is around 230 ft/lbs or so. The 9mm is up around 330 ft/lbs.
But I digress. I'd carry a .380 without worries. But then again, I can shoot.
-T.
But I digress. I'd carry a .380 without worries. But then again, I can shoot.
-T.
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