.380ACP JHPs versus bone and ballistic gelatin

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when I can't carry something bigger because of how I'm dressed my LCP is staggered with "just in case" in this order of rotation Winchester 95gr Ranger-T's and WWB FMJ-flat nose and I do feel comfortable with that combination with as they say < proper placement of shoots delivered > because if you *do not do your part* any size caliber bigger or smaller will not do theirs ... YMMV
 
Thanks for the report.
Summary:
The wounding mechanism of a jacketed hollowpoint is the crushing of tissue through bullet expansion. Failing this, the lethality of a JHP is oftentimes lower than a full metal jacket which wounds through tumbling. FMJ bullet shapes lend themselves more readily to tumbling than a JHP that failed to expand – though many of the unexpanded JHPs did tumble, it was far too deep into the track to have influenced the lethality of the bullet to any extent.

Generally speaking, the expansion of the four conventional bullets tested was unreliable and inadequate after impact with the bone simulant plate and gelatin while the wounding efficiency of the RBCD is questionable due to its expanded surface area being very similar to that of a 380ACP FMJ.
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From the report - "Shows a ‘head-on’ view of the human weapon system. Note the size of heart relative to the rib cage and sternum."

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The way I see it, a clogged HP works like an FMJ. So I just carry HPs and figure that if I aim COM and hit bone, it will hit important stuff in the chest anyway.
 
Skribs said:
The way I see it, a clogged HP works like an FMJ. So I just carry HPs and figure that if I aim COM and hit bone, it will hit important stuff in the chest anyway.
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Apparently, you missed part of the report. His observation seems to be that FMJ usually appears to be more lethal than HPs that don't expand.

JE223, thanks for the report!....Have you observed Truncated FMJ .380 with the bone plate and if so what's your observation of its performance?
 
Test with the DPX I bet it will work That copper bullet just acts way different.
I shot thru thin lexan and in to water jugs it opened
 
????

Is it just me or did the report say Hornady 110 grn instead of RBCD 45 grn???
That might make a difference!
 
FMJs typically will tumble/angle of attack significantly, toward the end of the depth of interest. This isn't nearly as good as a FMJ that is designed to tumble, but still better than a clogged JHP that may not tumble at all.
 
Tumbling tumbling

This isn't nearly as good as a FMJ that is designed to tumble, but still better than a clogged JHP that may not tumble at all.
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I was wondering about that. How difficult would it be to design a bullet to spin (end over end) upon impact rather than expand? If it were possible wouldn't that be the perfect SD round?
 
Glad I have several hundred rounds of WWB 95 gr. fmj.
They get decent penetration,feed super reliably in the LCP and Diamondback 380,and can be found generally fairly cheaply at thousands of Wal-Marts daily in boxes of 100 count.
I will save the expensive hollow points for the PM9.
 
I was wondering about that. How difficult would it be to design a bullet to spin (end over end) upon impact rather than expand? If it were possible wouldn't that be the perfect SD round?
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It's not easy to do, because it requires some prototyping and iteration. But the key is to keep your bullets 'center of pressure' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_pressure far fore of the bullets center of mass.

Here are two examples of bullets that were designed to tumble effectively:

FN SS-195 (5.7x28mm) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpnnh-0YEbk

Fiocchi 100gr FMJTC (9x18mm Police) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXTNynOFpLk
 
I only use FMJ in 380 and 32. Too many mixed results, in 32 a hollow point seems reatarded unless your on the beach and any attacker is not wearing a shirt. In all my bugs all I use is FMJ because they work. Flatnose
 
Center of pressure

It's not easy to do, because it requires some prototyping and iteration. But the key is to keep your bullets 'center of pressure' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_pressure far fore of the bullets center of mass
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.

I guess if there were an easy way to induce it mechanically the cartridge manufacturers would have stumbled across it while developing the expanding SD rounds.
 
Thanks for posting the report...by any chance, did you record how deeply they penetrated after hitting the plate? I don't recall seeing it in the report...
 
I guess if there were an easy way to induce it mechanically the cartridge manufacturers would have stumbled across it while developing the expanding SD rounds.
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I think it's more a matter of marketing/return on investment. Most people won't believe that tumbling pistol bullets (properly designed, to hurt people) can be as or more effective than conventional JHPs. Imagine your defensive bullets costing as much as your FMJ ammo ... you could quite reasonably train with what you are going to fight, for no extra cost.

Thanks for posting the report...by any chance, did you record how deeply they penetrated after hitting the plate? I don't recall seeing it in the report...
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The penetration depth is in there... Table 1 near the bottom.

John
 
Low cost SD rounds

That would be ashamed...NOT! Another way to look at it from a marketing point of view, it would give a manufacturer a cost advantage and possibly instant market share. I would love to pratice with my carry ammo...but I don't because it's too expensive.
 
what do you guys think about a 95 grain JSP 9mm load spec'd at 1350FPS coming out of a duty length gun as a carry load?

i have a case of this stuff
 
97guns said:
what do you guys think about a 95 grain JSP 9mm load spec'd at 1350FPS coming out of a duty length gun as a carry load?

i have a case of this stuff
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Is it Hirtenberger? If it is, it's superb ammo.

I have a bunch of Hirtenberger 100gr +P+ flat point soft nose that I shoot out of my Kahr K9.

I don't remember the exact velocity but a guy at the range ran it through his chronograph and I remember it was well over 1500fps from the K9.
 
no this is federal, picked it up from cheaper than dirt it was an overrun for the taiwan police and the illinois state police used it for a little while untill it underperformed.
 
the illinois state police used it for a little while untill it underperformed.
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should read "someone decided that it wasn't what they expected and the idea spread through the mechanism of nodding heads" ... ;)

WOW! 1500+ 100 gr. Is the ME comparable to the 124 nato?
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I worked extensively with M882 and couldn't seem to get more than 1250 ft/sec out of my 4" Mann barrel, so KE there was 430 ft-lbf. But remember that M882 is loaded very hot for a 9x19mm.

Those figures for the 100gr bullet at 1500 ft/sec come out to 500 ft-lbf of KE.
 
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