Report : 9x19mm JHPs versus Bone and Ballistic Gelatin

[918v]

Why so specific of a target?

Cuz you asked:

Which part of the sternum?

I think you would have attracted less criticism if you had used an inch of jello in front of a rack of ribs followed by the rest of the jello block. People don't walk around with a composite plate glued to the outside of their clothing.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Cuz you asked:

I'm asking you "what is the tactical relevance of The Fifth Line of Union". Is that where all shots fired during a gunfight impact?

I think you would have attracted less criticism if you had used an inch of jello in front of a rack of ribs followed by the rest of the jello block. People don't walk around with a composite plate glued to the outside of their clothing.

We'll shoot anything that you are willing to fund.

 

[tipoc]

What is "The Fifth Line of Union"? A new band out of Oklahoma City?

tipoc

 

[918v]

I'm asking you "what is the tactical relevance of The Fifth Line of Union". Is that where all shots fired during a gunfight impact?

The sternum was too broad of an area for you. You wanted to know which part of the sternum. I told you which part.

The tactical relevance it it is center of mass, the spot we aim at when shooting people.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Here is the paragraph from the report where the sternum was mentioned in passing:

The critical areas of the body are generally protected in some manner by the presence of bone immediately behind the skin. The large percentage of the vital areas of the chest that are protected by the rib cage and sternum make it desirable to simulate bone and then the soft tissue behind the bone. A priority of this report was in choosing a caliber and ammunition that was relevant to both civilian law enforcement and civilian gun owners. We evaluated several popular 9x19mm JHPs from a common CCW firearm – a Glock 19 with 4.0” barrel length.

Notice that the rib cage was mentioned also, along with the sternum.

The sternum was too broad of an area for you.

Not quite sure where you're going with that, but my original questions for you still stand.

The tactical relevance it it is center of mass, the spot we aim at when shooting people.

Interesting. What about all of the shots that don't impact that exact point of aim?

 

[918v]

They impact other areas of the body, or none at all. Why are we having this conversation?

It is blatantly obvious why we aim at the sternum. Just because we err or the assailant moves out of the way does not invalidate the goal of placing a bullet through the sternum.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

You've just explained why we were modeling the general case of a bullet impact with bone and not a specific body part.

Thank you for putting it so succinctly.

 

[NWcityguy2]

I thought the test was very well thought out. Sadly it is easier to sit behind a computer and sharpshoot than it is to do what you are doing.

 

[918v]

You've just explained why we were modeling the general case of a bullet impact with bone and not a specific body part.

The problem is you have the bullet striking unprotected bone which is an unrealistic scenario. Everyone knows that a JHP bullet begins to expand immediately when it hits flesh. Therefore, it will be partially expanded before striking bone. As a result, the hollow point plugging up by bone chunks is less of an issue than your test makes it out to be.

 

[NWcityguy2]

And people walk around wearing 4 layers of denim too, or have you forgot Mr. Tester?

 

[tipoc]

I'll offer a defense of the test and it's methods first and then a small criticism.

First this test is a useful and straightforward one. Through sim bone and into gelatin. Similar to going through a rib and into the body. It shows the results with the rounds tested. Which expanded, how much and how deep. Folks can draw their conclusions from that.

The conclusions that can be drawn are limited ones and that is the case with all such tests. They all have their limits and their usefulness. The test was not designed to show what might happen in some other scenario, through the lattisimus dorsi muscle and into the sternum from the rear for example. Or when hitting a rounded bone, or from an angle, etc. That would require different tests and we need to be aware that the bullets may act a bit differently under different conditions.

Tests of this type are useful. They show us what they show us. What the particular bullets did in a specific test under specific circumstances.

The testers did good work and we can take what they did and use that information or we can complain that they did not show us another test.

There can be a temptation to draw too many conclusions from such a test or project too much into it and I think that the text that accompanies the report, to the extent that it does not just describe it, tends to do that a bit.

tipoc

 

[918v]

The above test shows that DPX bullets have the most reliable hollow point design when penetrating through simulated bone plates. I hope people don't abandon their favorite carry load after viewing the results.

Dr. Eugene Wolberg's study of late '80s vintage Winchester 9mm 147gr JHP fired through real live people courtesy of the San Diego Police Department indicates that even the most basic hollow point expands reliably thrpugh clothing and bones.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

That study specifically states that bone hits were thrown out of the results (under 'Shots from Human Autopsies' on the first page) :

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152582&stc=1&d=1321109600

We're proud to bring the first quantifiable bone testing results to the shooting public.

 

[481]

J,

Thanks for sharing the results of your testing.

I see nothing wrong with 'em and find them very informative.

Don't worry 'bout the whiners either, if they can't appreciate your generosity that ain't your problem.

 

[The Sarge]

When we go hog hunting we all take our carry guns with us.
Hogs that we find dead from lead poisoning, we "test" various off the shelf and our handloads on them.
I believe hog makes a better real world test subject.

 

[Ken Brock]

interesting but not relevant to real world

I've witnessed quite a few shootings using Gold Dots (primarily .40 cal but some 9mm and .45) and they almost always expand

I've also seen shootings involving Golden Sabres, Black Talon, Hydra Shok, PMC Starfire, Federal HST, and a host of other non name brand JHPs

gelatin doesn't tell the real story nor does synthetic bone

I prefer to trust real world evidence

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Please post some of this real world evidence.

If people were shot, surely the legal system was involved at some point and there would be documentation of what happened.

 

[Ken Brock]

my real world experience is being a cop for 20 years and investigating many shootings

as well as being involved in a few myself

 

[jackpinesavages]

Excellent info., thanks for the work.

3 letters: CNS

 

[Brass Fetcher]

my real world experience is being a cop for 20 years and investigating many shootings

as well as being involved in a few myself

Were there any reports done of the autopsies?

 

[Ken Brock]

of course there were

 

[fast200]

I think everyone should be thanking the tester and the sponsor of the test (if there was one) for adding to the body of data that is out there instead of trying to discredit the test.

No one is forcing anyone to change their carry ammo based on his test.

Personally I buy the best inexpensive JHP that works well in my firearm but I really appreciate the work that is being done here.

 

[_N4Z_]

of course there were

Well that is what we would all like to see.

Not just your resume with a "cuz I said so."

 

[Ken Brock]

umm, yeah

like I can just go into the office files and take what I want and then post it on the internet

right

take my word for it or not, it doesn't affect me one way or the other

I know what I carry and I'm confident in that. You can either believe or not, the choice is yours

but think about it in common sense terms, we believe what gelatin and synthetic bone tells us or we can believe what actual shootings tell us

 

[Brass Fetcher]

It would be nice to be able to see some of this data, that refutes the original report. Solid data like the shotlines the bullets took, would allow some kind of a response to the 'been there, done that' evidence.