Report : 9x19mm JHPs versus Bone and Ballistic Gelatin

[1SOW]

I have a pear tree that the squirrels 'strip' of pears every year.
I bought a cheap pump-up Daisy BB-gun that shoots both bbs or pellets at about 600'sec.

I've shot and killed 35 squirrels so far this year using both BBs and lead pellets. I've only had about three maybe four "dead when they hit the ground' experiences. All four were head shots. Maybe one of these was with steel BBs. The others fell to the ground but needed a second or third shot to kill. Most were shot with BBs.

I suspect I would have no or very few kills if the gun only developed 200-300 FPS 'bullet speed'. I usually aim at the upper chest to allow some margin of error for me and the gun.

1. You can believe this or not
2. You can trade in your 'Red Rider' with 300 fps, or not
3 You can switch to all lead pellets or not

This is what I experienced. It's information you may or may not value. I can't prove, document or show any pictures, but NEXT summer I may get to eat pears.

 

[jackpinesavages]

I am a Deputy in two different agencies, one as a Coroner. The "shotlines" of humans vs. gelatin tests are nowhere near similar, OK? Posting pics and/or report notes from autopsies aint gonna happen. How much evidence do you need to see to realize that shooting humans is different than shooting gelatin?

While I can appreciate the work done in these tests it has always brought up different sorts of non-parallel discussions per loads, and exactly what to carry in your SD weapon.

Carry what you shoot most accurately and PRACTICE with, making head shots.







"It would be nice to be able to see some of this data, that refutes the original report. Solid data like the shotlines the bullets took, would allow some kind of a response to the 'been there, done that' evidence. "

 

[Ken Brock]

jackpinesavages is exactly right

but here is something I can share with you. I shot a whitetail buck with my Glock 30sf using my duty load, Federal HST 230 grain +P

we had a gel shoot at my department not long after that so I shot the gel with the same round to compare them

the bullet taken from the buck looks very much like the bullets I've seen pulled out of felonious humans

the gel bullet looks like an advertising poster from an ammunition manufacturer

 

[Sox]

JE223,

Great job! A lot of valid points are raised. I especially like the percentages of actual protected thorax by the bony structures, important concept. In looking over the synbone, I see a skin covered model is offered. I think the skin covering is probably a big factor, one that we are missing currently. The skin is very elastic and tougher than one thinks. Look how just covering regular gelatin with 4 layer denim as is done traditionally.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Thanks Sox. Synbone does offer a lot of flexibility in their products. It would be nice to continue testing with some of their other simulants such as that.

I am a Deputy in two different agencies, one as a Coroner. The "shotlines" of humans vs. gelatin tests are nowhere near similar, OK?

Here is a report that was mentioned earlier in the thread, regarding the findings of a Senior Firearms Criminologist at the San Diego Police Crime Laboratory.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152582&stc=1&d=1321109600

Under the 'Discussion' section, the report says:

"The expansion ratios of the 147gr 9mm bullet in 10% ordinance gelatin was about 1.20, with an average penetration depth of 13 inches. In living human torsos, the average penetration depth was also found to be 13 inches, with an expansion ratio of 1.15."

I like this report, because it provides numbers and findings that we can talk about.

 

[918v]

The report has limited value because it excludes bone hits, as you pointed out earlier.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

The report has limited value because it excludes bone hits, as you pointed out earlier.

Here's the quote:

I am a Deputy in two different agencies, one as a Coroner. The "shotlines" of humans vs. gelatin tests are nowhere near similar, OK?

The report addresses soft tissues hits only and is useful for that circumstance. They probably threw out the bone hits because the effects were too random.

That's where the idea of shooting the 'reasonable worst case' of a material similar to bone comes in. Then the question comes up, as we have no doubt touched on, of which part of which bone to simulate. Since there is a large amount of variation of bone configuration in the human body, we are relying on a company that makes its living selling bone simulant to produce a representative flat plate. If you look at other barrier tests, what they use is a flat plate of whatever material they are testing, as a starting point. With more interest/funding for the additional work, they will then test the material at different "real world" angles and compare that to the flat plate test.

 

[918v]

I get it.

Why did you choose, for your test, to place the plate outsice of the gel? Why did you not place it .5"-1" inside the gel? Is gel that difficult to slice?

 

[Brass Fetcher]

We chose to put the bone plate outside of the gelatin as a baseline. I like the idea of putting the plate some 1" or so inside of the gelatin, which can easily be done by placing the plate inside of the mold during the gelatin curing process.

What I'll do, tomorrow, is ask the test sponsor if they would like to have the tests repeated with the plate inside of the gelatin. We have a high speed video shoot coming up two weeks + 1 day from today ... it would be great to have this on film.

 

[jackpinesavages]

"The report addresses soft tissues hits only and is useful for that circumstance. They probably threw out the bone hits because the effects were too random. "


Bone hits. If you are shooting humans for self defense or law enforcement purposes, and are excluding bone hits, you're my kind of science guy; head shots are what I am trained for to stop the threat at the CNS.

13" of bullet travel in a human is strictly a soft tissue entrance that is uninhibited by bones which means around the rib cage, through an armpit, etc..

As I said earlier I appreciate the work done and the posted results. However, it results in debates which though I enjoy, falls on one of two sides: guns or ammunition. Skirting the most important cranial aspect of training like there's no tomorrow. I would love to post some relevant autopsy photos or notes but that is a breech of protecting those I am sworn to protect; those who can no longer represent themselves.

 

[Dean1818]

We chose to put the bone plate outside of the gelatin as a baseline. I like the idea of putting the plate some 1" or so inside of the gelatin, which can easily be done by placing the plate inside of the mold during the gelatin curing process.

What I'll do, tomorrow, is ask the test sponsor if they would like to have the tests repeated with the plate inside of the gelatin. We have a high speed video shoot coming up two weeks + 1 day from today ... it would be great to have this on film.

I would very much like to see this!

Since I shoot a 45............ (feel free to start there...

 

[Dean1818]

Ken,

First off, thank you for your service as police officer. I can imagine it is a thankless job, and I am personally very glad I have not had to fire my weapon as a CCW holder.

The folks at brass fetcher have done many excellent tests, clearly stating the conditions of the test and what results they found.

I have seen a few LEO s, military service, autopsies, and other real world opinions and observations.

These opinions and observations vary wildly.

Since the vast majority of the readers of these boards haven't seen or experienced anything like you
have, and the shared info is non-specific. (I can understand that you can't post internal documents
on the web) the readers view any research with specific results shared as more helpful.

Maybe a test, as mentioned with 1/2 inch of gel in front of the bone would be more helpful.

Either way, I hope the tests keep coming.

Dean

 

[481]

Thanks Sox. Synbone does offer a lot of flexibility in their products. It would be nice to continue testing with some of their other simulants such as that.



Here is a report that was mentioned earlier in the thread, regarding the findings of a Senior Firearms Criminologist at the San Diego Police Crime Laboratory.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152582&stc=1&d=1321109600

Under the 'Discussion' section, the report says:

"The expansion ratios of the 147gr 9mm bullet in 10% ordinance gelatin was about 1.20, with an average penetration depth of 13 inches. In living human torsos, the average penetration depth was also found to be 13 inches, with an expansion ratio of 1.15."

I like this report, because it provides numbers and findings that we can talk about.

J-

By any chance, do you know if Synbone lists a notched or un-notched Charpy impact test value for their plate material?

 

[Ken Brock]

Dean, thanks for the understanding

it's really too bad that we can't share the reports but lawyers would eat us alive, not to mention department policy violations

I realize that not many (if anybody) knows me on this forum and I understand that what I mention can be taken with a grain of salt

I also understand how anecdotal evidence can be viewed. it still pisses me off to hear an officer say something like, "those Black Talons will go through a vest" and other stupid remarks. The majority of law enforcement guys aren't gun people with a good knowledge of ballistics and the like

I have no vested interest in any one particular brand of ammunition, I'm only looking to share my experiences

 

[Brass Fetcher]

The sponsor has been emailed regarding funding an additional series of tests with the 0.5" (or 1") thick gelatin + bone plate + regular size gelatin block.

Regarding the training - I agree, training should be everyones first priority. Since our business focus is on testing the projectiles themselves, it happens sometimes that people think that we are looking for the 'magic bullet' ... or the Vishnu bullet as I like to call it (Vishnu being the destroyer of worlds that Robert Oppenheimer is famously quoted as saying) in place of training.

Our other goal, in the process of accomplishing the first, is to evaluate the qualitative 'feels' that people have for bullet function in a scientific and repeatable way. Of course, that means that some assumptions have to be made, but the realities of ballistic testing mean that some types of realism ... just isn't practical .

I'll let everyone know what I hear back from the sponsor regarding the funding of additional bone testing.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

The sponsor got back with us regarding the additional testing - it's looking like the original test series told them what they wanted to know.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

By any chance, do you know if Synbone lists a notched or un-notched Charpy impact test value for their plate material?

I forgot to answer this. At some point, I had a material property sheet for the bone plates but it should be on their website.

John

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Interesting insights about Brassfetcher and 20% vs 10% gelatin:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1157058&postcount=11

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1157798&postcount=23

 

[tipoc]

Brass Fetcher uses both 10% and 20% ballistic gelatin and generally says which it is using in any test it conducts or videos it posts. In the case of the post which begins this thread, and the link provided, they say they are using the industry standard 10% gelatin.

tipoc

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Or you could just ask me.

Most of that is correct, one point is that 20% gelatin is still being used for high speed video. Another point - his idea of my work history is incorrect. It is much more polite to ask me in person or in private.

I won't address the concerns about the wound ballistics debate mentioned, here or in any other medium. Some people have their opinions about the subject and others have their opinions. That is why we do both static testing with 10% and dynamic testing with 20% gelatin.