.38spl wadcutter brass? Part 2

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jell-dog

jell-dog

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I am not claiming that brass manufacturers produce “regular .38spl brass” and “wadcutter .38spl brass”.
I am not a mechanical engineer or rocket scientist :what:, I am just presenting my basement best efforts and observations to determine if some .38spl brass is better suited to lead HBWC’s than other .38spl brass.
To measure this difference, I purchased a STARRETT #829 SMALL HOLE FULL BALL GAGE SET to sort brass with longer side walls from shorter side walls.
I used the 0.300” to 0.450” gauge.
I marked the gauge for average short side wall length and average long side wall length to use as a quick measurement tool while sorting/inspecting .38spl brass.
Also, I wanted to determine if the longer side walled .38spl brass would accommodate flush seated soft lead HBWC’s without swaging down the skirt.
I do not have any 148gr lead HBWC’s to measure (if a forum member has any, measure over all length and post please :D), but I do have some BERRY’S plated SWC’s, 148gr DEWC’s and 148gr HBWC’s for comparison.
Here are some photos showing my methods and results:

STARRETT #829 SMALL HOLE FULL BALL GAGE SET
01holegauge_zpsa1d4e116.gif

0.300” to 0.450” gauge marked for average short/long side wall length

02gauge_zpsf79b013b.gif

data on cases used
03bothsets2_zps56181ac0.gif

depth that bullets would be seated
04bullets_zpsdf03b3f8.gif


Want to check to see if you have brass fit for lead hollow base wadcutters? :uhoh: see post #2
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184201-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brasshttp://http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184201-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brass

Quote from Char-Gar on Cast Boolets.com
“Unless you are planning on competition at a high level, the advance of the HBWC over the SBWC will not be noticed or helpful. You will be using bullets with "special needs" and not reaping any benefits for the extra care and work. Back in my Bullseye days, we all cast solid base wadcutters for practice. Come match time, we invested in some factory match ammo, as it would outshoot our solid base wadcutter practice ammo. Of course, the bullets in the factory ammo were of the hollow base variety.”

1. The opinion stated above is repeated in various discussions on www.bullseyeforum.net/ on their ammunition discussion forum and in archived articles.
2. In conclusion, for those of us NOT in SERIOUS bullseye compitition, what does this mean in relation to “wadcutter brass for HBWC’s?
IMHO, I think that sorting your brass by length of the side walls before the taper to the base of the case makes sense for wadcutter use, solid or hollow base.
I do not conclude that for a vast majority of us (those not into competition shooting) "the extra care and work" that loading of lead HBWC ammo and the time spent sorting out the long walled brass will show any real benefits.
3. Longer side walls, IMHO, will not swag the lead HBWC’s as there is a longer side wall measurement than the length of the flush seated HBWC.
4. Also, IMHO, the brass with the side wall beginning sooner would have MARGINALLY less volume than a side wall beginning deeper into the case.
Therefore the shorter side wall MAY produce higher pressure and swag HBWC's, mixing long and short side wall cases MAY cause slight accuracy discrepancies.
5. I will continue to sort by length of side wall for wadcutter use as I need all the help I can get to achieve greater accuracy. And I have proven TO MYSELF there is an advantage to useing long side wall brass for wadcutters.
YMMV:what:
Looking forward to a lively :cuss:, informational :confused: and respectful :D discussion/opinions/thoughts on my findings!
THR is THE FORUM for open/friendly discussion as far I am concerned!
Thank you for taking the time to read my LONG opinion on .38spl brass! :D
jell-dog
 
VERY INTERESTING !!! ONE trick I learned decades ago about sizing 38SPL brass for WC bullets was to use a 38SUPER/38S&W carbide sizing die. Then I had Bill Keyes of RCBS make me a long tapered .3585"O.D. expander plug to use with ANY WC bullet of and style or width. You could if you wanted to, seat bullets with your finger, taper crimp them, and shoot 'em into one hole groups at 25 yards out of damnear any 38SPL sixgun worth it's salt.
ALSO, it all my testing with WC bullets in 38's ALL of the best loads with ANY kind or style of WC was ALWAYS with full-charge loads, not mid-range loads.
 
Wil Terry said:
VERY INTERESTING !!! ONE trick I learned decades ago about sizing 38SPL brass for WC bullets was to use a 38SUPER/38S&W carbide sizing die. Then I had Bill Keyes of RCBS make me a long tapered .3585"O.D. expander plug to use with ANY WC bullet of and style or width. You could if you wanted to, seat bullets with your finger, taper crimp them, and shoot 'em into one hole groups at 25 yards out of damnear any 38SPL sixgun worth it's salt.
ALSO, it all my testing with WC bullets in 38's ALL of the best loads with ANY kind or style of WC was ALWAYS with full-charge loads, not mid-range loads.
Click to expand...
I have read that RCBS offered that 0.3585 expander plug, but no longer offer it.
Would be interesting to find one or measured drawings to have one made. Thanks for your reply!
 
Back in my PPC shooting days, our Pistol Team purchased a Ransom Rest and imbedded the stand for it in a 3' diameter concrete pipe filled with concret and set in a concrete base, just behind the 50 yard line of our range. We proved to ourselves that all our PPC revolvers shot best with HBWC bullets and 2.7 gr. of Bullseye. I used to have a target I shot with my reloads that was shot off the Ransom Rest at 54 yards that had 10 shots in 1 7/8", using all six of the chambers of my K-38 with Bomar Rib. No DEWC bullet or load ever came close to that in our testing. We confined our use of DEWC bullets to the 7 yard line....

Winchester and Remington made HBWC brass for years. I just sent off the last of my stash of once fired Winchester HBWC brass to a friend in PA who just purchased a S&W Model 52. My old eyes won't allow the degree of accuracy anymore needed for those matches.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I've only shot several million .38spl wadcutter's so I'm not sure I'm really qualified to comment, but here I go anyway.

I'd like to see some tests between the so-called wadcutter brass and some non-wadcutter brass loaded with identical hollow-base wadcutter bullets and powder charge and fired from a match revolver from a machine rest to see if there is any actual performance difference.

Back in circa 1992, the Mississippi Highway Patrol team took some Delta Precision ammo and tested both the new ammo and reloaded ammo through several of their handguns from their Ransom rest at the training center. The particular lot# of reloads actually out-shot the new factory loads by a small margin !! That was with mixed brass of unknown history and manufacture.

I personally have always matched head-stamp and preferred Remington R-P head stamp. Thats only because 1. It was thin and had a straight internal taper (wadcutter brass? not neccessarily so because the RoundNose brass was same except for the single canalure instead of double) 2. It's what the Federal agencies issued to their teams (Treasury, BP, Secret Serv.,ect) and they left LOTS of it on the ground for scroungers like ME.
Winchester had a good reputation in the 60's and 70's, but by the late 80's had changed the bullets and velocity spec's to the point that it shot like crap... (they supposedly post-loading sized the outside of the brass and loaded them oversized, which resulted in under-sized bullets....

FWIW; I found that alloy, sized diameter, and lubricant on the WC made more difference than design (flat-base/bevel base).
I always shot the home-cast bullets except for big matches, and then only shot the "factory made" wadcutters (reloaded ammo) at the 50yd line where it DID make a difference. My home-cast double-end wadcutters would, and do shoot 1-hole groups at 25yds (Lee 6-cavity!) well inside the X-ring (18-24 shots), so I could not justify the expense of the store-bought bullets, except in a $$$ match. (ie: regional or nationals).
also,
I found that HP38/Win231 was more accurate for me (2.9gr), and is in fact what Delta Precision used back in the 80's and 90's. More recently, they have gone to another mil-spec powder because it supposedly is "cleaner" ?! but certainly not as accurate.
 
I am thankful for all of your real life experiences in reloading/shooting .38spl wadcutters!
Great info here for those seeking accurate 38spl wadcutter results.
 
38spl wadcutter brass found?

wadcase1_zps004c42e2.gif

I found this case while sorting/inspecting my 38spl brass!:eek:
Could this be the missing link?:confused:
 
That's a Fiocchi case meant for loading Wadcutter bullets. They have a plant in Italy, and one in the U.S., in Ozark, MO, so it could have come from either of them, but my guess would be from the U.S. plant.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
jell-dog,

rcbs will still make a custom expander plug for you. call them and tell them what you want. i had them make a .354" dia. plug for me a couple years ago.

nice people,

murf
 
This discussion is well timed as I am scratching my head at why a recently purchased K38 14-4 is not as accurate (yet) as I expected when I bought it a couple months ago. Now I'm basing that comment on shooting free handed rather than through my Hyskore rest - which isn't close to a Ransom, which is one of the reasons I've held off rest testing till I have a Red Dot mounted on the pistol.

I'm new to reloading the 38 so bought the usual bag of brass from Amazon and have lead 148gr DEWC from Dardas Bullets (one of the vendors who gives us a discount). Bullets seem high quality.

I have not been loading flush, rather with just the taper showing above the case mouth and crimped minimally, just enough to take off the flair of the case mouth (measures about .380 diameter crimped).

Have read about others swearing by 231 hp/38 (which I don't have). One fellow told me 3.0 gr of Red Dot which I did have and does not seem as accurate as expected yet.

What do you gentleman think of setting the bullet flush - and how would you describe the crimp I should look to use?

Thanks
 
Some people swear they get better accuracy without a crimp, but I've always gotten better accuracy with a firm roll crimp. I like the wadcutter bullets seated flush, with a good roll crimp over the bullet. Not an excessive crimp, but very similar to what the factories use for their HBWC loads.

My K-38 will drill them into the same hole at 25 yards all day long, as long as I do my part, and that's double action. Of course the hole will be about 1.5" in diameter, but the paper will be all gone inside the hole after 18 rounds of wadcutters. I used to have some of the targets I shot with that revolver, but lost them in a divorce, along with everything else of value, except the guns.........

For powder with .38 Wadcutters, I still prefer the old tried and true Bullseye. I reserve my Winchester 231 for the .45 acp, where it excels. I'm pretty old fashioned when it comes to shooting .38 caliber wadcutters, since it worked so well for me in the past. Others may have better results with other combinations, so I'm only giving my personal opinion base on my experience alone.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I found it interesting that in the 1930's when revolvers ruled NRA Center-Fire, wad-cutters were loaded well out of the case.
This would seem to center them better in the chamber throats.

I don't believe the flush seated wad-cutter came to be until much later when .38 Spl. auto-loaders required them to be as short as possible to fit in the magazine and feed.

.38 Mid-Range Match
Forth row down, 2nd from the right.
OldColtammo.jpg

rc
 
To me, all .38 Spl. brass is wadcutter brass. I've reloaded zillions and must have several hundred different headstamps, as much of it is range brass. For the last few years I've been using Missouri Bullet 148 DEWCs over 2.9 Bullseye, no crimp, seated almost flush with a tiny bit of lead peeking out. They seem to work great for me.
 
I did manage to run a quick seat of the pants test just balancing the barrel and using 2 hands at 50 feet and the Red Dot 3.0 gave me 1.5" groups. I am not as good a shot as y'all so I need the full rest test (clamped into my Hyskore) with a Red Dot to be sure at 25 yards.

I'm sure RC is on to something and another Bullseye shooter suggested the minimal crimp and slight protrusion of lead as giving him the best accuracy. That said, I have not seen a factory wadcutter so I don't have a basis of comparison. I would really have to look around here to find that.
 
jell-dog,
No disrespect meant here but IMO you are WAY over-thinking a simple loading job. With all the excessive time you are spending on all the tests and writing you could have loaded A LOT of ammo, shot it and loaded the brass again. Some thing are worth the time but IMO, this is not one of them...

I'll say it again, if the brass manufacturers made different brass for wadcutters they would make it well known so they could sell you more brass...
 
ArchAngelCD said:
jell-dog,
No disrespect meant here but IMO you are WAY over-thinking a simple loading job. With all the excessive time you are spending on all the tests and writing you could have loaded A LOT of ammo, shot it and loaded the brass again. Some thing are worth the time but IMO, this is not one of them...

I'll say it again, if the brass manufacturers made different brass for wadcutters they would make it well known so they could sell you more brass...
Click to expand...
ArchAngelCD,
No offence taken! And no offence to any member is intended by my opinions.
I realy like that members on this forum can voice their opinions, for or against any subject that is brought up!
I agree that I may have "over-thought" and "spent excessive time" on this but I enjoy the brass prep and learning all I can to produce accurate ammo (but not close to enjoment of shooting that ammo!)
I have FINALY settled on several loads to workup using the info I have researched using "wadcutter vs regular" brass just to see if in my revolvers it makes any differance.
I will be the FIRST to admit and report if there is no differance in accuracy!
I also enjoy the spirited discussions here on THR!
Mark
 
No offence taken! And no offence to any member is intended by my opinions.
I realy like that members on this forum can voice their opinions, for or against any subject that is brought up!
Click to expand...

JD, this is because you are high road!

I've played around so much with my home cast WC's, at one point I had 4 different molds. I experimented with bullets/crimp/powder/primers/OAL and in the end, probably thousands of rounds later, they ALL shot better than I could. I settled with a Lee 6cav high volume mold, 2.8g of bullseye and about a 1/16" of the bullet out of the case mouth, them lightly roll crimped to remove the bell. Still shoots better than I can! And to me the volume of practice mattered more that the fact that some other combo may have yielded a better group by a quarter of an eighth of a tenth of a millimeter.
 
Last edited:
Excellent post! I've read posts on Cast Boolits about this topic, but no one really investigated the phenomena. Like Bigfoot, I'm a believer that there are variances in case construction, and those differences correspond with the intended use determined by the manufacturer. Rumor has it that .38 spl cases with one or more cannelures are wadcutter brass, from observing the differences between factory wadcutter and plain loaded ammo. I'm very interested to see quantifiable measurements.
 
John C said:
Excellent post! I've read posts on Cast Boolits about this topic, but no one really investigated the phenomena. Like Bigfoot, I'm a believer that there are variances in case construction, and those differences correspond with the intended use determined by the manufacturer. Rumor has it that .38 spl cases with one or more cannelures are wadcutter brass, from observing the differences between factory wadcutter and plain loaded ammo. I'm very interested to see quantifiable measurements.
Click to expand...
I have sorted my .38spl brass in line with the first post in this thread.
Out of the approximately 1000 pieces (based on weight @ ~100 cases/lb) of "long side wall" brass a majority have 1 or 2 cannelures, some none.
I will report if "regular brass" or "wadcutter brass"
makes any accuracy difference in my revolvers.
That is if I do my part :D
PS
Thanks for your kind words.
 
Last edited:
Great job researching jell-dog.

Like Bigfoot, I'm a believer that there are variances in case construction, and those differences correspond with the intended use determined by the manufacturer
Click to expand...

I notice the difference in wall thickness a lot when the thicker wall brass is difficult to load into a cylinder on the revolver.

In terms of accuracy - I'm so bad that without a red dot, just using iron sights and testing powders, I can't tell if it's my aim or the round!
 
Interesting thread. It is of interest to me because I need to work up a load for my S&W 52-1.
 
murf said:
jell-dog,

rcbs will still make a custom expander plug for you. call them and tell them what you want. i had them make a .354" dia. plug for me a couple years ago.

nice people,

murf
Click to expand...
murf,
Contacted RCBS and they were able to make an expansion plug for my die set no problem.
You are right, VERY good to work with!:D
 
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