4-Shot .357 Any Kiddo or Felon Can Now Legally Purchase and Carry Unconcealed

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Mashie, yes, OC is legal without a permit in Louisiana outside of school zones, military bases, and a few other specific situations and cities. I don't normally open carry, just because I don't want to advertise that I'm armed to the entire world, someone my follow me home and plot a break-in to steal my guns. We have a state RKBA in the state constitution.

As far as a 16 year old being able to OC and air rifle?? You are really reaching to find something bad about this thing. It's obviously designed for the sole purpose of hunting. While other things could be done with it, if I wanted to be a gangbanger I'd get something a little more convenient. That's just me.
 
BTW, if someone is walking down a city street with this thing on their back, the police WILL be called and they WILL be detained. This happens to citizens that are legally permitted to OC all of the time. I'm sure if it's some little hoodlum up to no good, they will probably run as soon as they see flashy lights and get cooked for "fleeing justice" or some other nonsense even if what they were doing was technically legal.
 
I'm curious as to why you're pushing the background check at all? Especially considering how few people who have been prosecuted for attempting to purchase since it's inception.

The second Amendment was instituted as a last line of defense for the people of the free republic at odds with an ever-more-tyrannical or out of control government. Government background checks and restrictions in general tend to be contrary to that idea. If you're of the opinion that the second Amendment is for hunting, sporting purposes, personal self defense, "looking cool," tinkering with guns, or target shooting, then a history lesson is in order. Further, face to face sales are legal in most states. In fact, out of the rather nice collection of firearms I currently own, the vast majority were purchased without (gasp!) going through an ffl or background check. If a felon or minor wants to purchase a gun without going through a background check, he can buy one illegally, order a C&B revolver or rifle online for around $200, or build one (which is pretty damned easy for simple designs). The fact that it's legal to carry this air gun openly has no bearing on the way criminals will carry them. They tend to carry real, cheaper guns that can be thrown away if trouble comes along. They also tend to conceal.... even though it's illegal for them to do so...again, who'da thunk it

Also, the nics check that you go through at a gun store isn't an FBI background check. I've been through several of those as well, and they're far more time consuming and extensive.
 
Davek,

1. We should not legislate each and every item that can be used with fatal results.

2. No Chicken Little. No falling sky.

3. Never assumed anything, much less every 16 year old stealing Mom's credit card is going to go on a shooting spree.

4. Your example of what i never said is indeed far-reaching, however not in fact presumptuous.

5. Regarding any (therefore every) 16 year old knowing where to obtain a firearm, i agrediously disagree, and would add that most that do not have certainly not taken any obviously critical firearms training courses.

6. Theft and shooting sprees, from a criminologist's perspective, are in completely different catagories. Not to get too deep, but graduate level criminologists understand that there are some that would do the former and not the latter, and quite frankly vice versa, as well.

7. Your premise regarding my belief of the oncoming reiteration of the Wild West is completely erroneous, dear sir, in fact i have no idea whatsoever where you were able to come up with that one.

8. Regarding what legislation might accomplish, the saving of one net life, perhaps????

9. If such legislation existed, one such person would also be unable to obtain a firearm, so again, you would have to consult a graduate level criminologist with the details of particular case studies.

10. Gun control laws caused me a ~2 minute hoop to jump through, and there is no credibly agreed upon evidence to support the fact that gun control laws have no impact on criminal behavior. That, sir, is a theory, your opinion, and one that most distiguished stasticians disagree with. You may be correct, only time will tell, and to say anything else prior to statistical proof is naive and ignorant. Oh yeah, and theorys can not be statistically disproved- You can check on that.

Best regards,

- MN
 
8. Regarding what legislation might accomplish, the saving of one net life, perhaps????
Click to expand...

So you are in favor of more restrictions/gun controls if it saves a single life?
 
*sigh* nobody is going to win this argument. If we stopped people from buying a car with the same background check I bet it would save a lot of lives, but we don't. Anyone familiar with DUI arrests, either personally or through family and close friends, usually knows that statistically, people do not get 1 DUI in a lifetime, but we continue to allow these people to drive after their first, second, and sometimes endless array of arrests, and there isn't a provision in the constitution that every citizen has the right to reliable transportation.
 
Geckgo,

The argument is indeed reaching as this is a new product and there are very few on the market right now, but yes, i do think they are bad, it is a bad idea, and the thought of minors with high powered air gun sniper rifles is a bit scary. . . i don't see them getting particularly popular due the price point, but all it would do is take one. For God's sake if you are hunting hogs or coyotes use a damned .223 or similar. Much, much better choice of firearm- i don't care what Jim Shockey says on page 16 of the catalogue or how much they paid him to say it.

The simple fact is that pressure is pressure and the bullet doesn't know the difference between and doesn't care at all whether that pressure comes from compressed air or incinerating powder.

What's in the plans for next year's model? 6 shots at full pressure, then 8 in 2013?

There needs to be a line with this.

- MN
 
it's a good thought, Mashie, to be sure, but..

I'm of the opinion that anyone over the age of 8 needs to start taking responsibility for their actions, so I have a better idea. Instead of regulating the guns, let's regulate the children and hold them accountable when they do something stupid at the age of 12 instead of putting them back on the streets. In my mind, there is no reason why a 16 year old can't be responsible with a firearm of any sort, and making more restrictions leads to more restrictions until you have to register your red rider. Is that what you want for your grand kids?
 
il,

Going back to the post American Revolutionary days i doubt seriously that it was publically looked well upon for the non military general public to openly carry muskets on a daily basis through the major cities. Most people had jobs and they did them, most without guns although many, most notably our militia, had them at home.

Today, most of America is at least the size and population of the major cities of that time.

If you were then, or are now, from the rural areas and were out hunting on a daily basis, then yes, i can see it being fine to carry a rifle, but population densities have changed considerably in most places since that time.

That said, life in the city is more dangerous today- thus concealed carry licensing and such. Today we have police and LE instead of military. This is all great, but i still think there should be a background check prior to firearm purchase at a firearm dealer to weed out potential felons and minors from purchasing. Will the majority still get them? Yes. Will this be a little more difficult? Yes, and good. Will the one's being traded around illegally wear out and malfunction over time? Yes. Will it be more difficult for felons to obtain replacements? i hope so.

i am sorry, but i am positive i overheard an FBI background check automated answering check over the speaker phone at the LGS when purchasing. .

- MN
 
Mashie,

I respect your right to disagree with the majority here. You have your opinion. As I person, I would willingly sacrifice a little safety precaution to retain my basic liberties as a human being and a citizen of the US.
 
ATCDoktor,

Regarding my desire for additional gun control laws, the only one i would like to see added would be that of the restricting of gun show sales to require background checks. i would like to make it more difficult for felons to loophole the system and purchase from collectors and such.

i really dislike the thought of nonmilitary, nonmilitarily trained citizens purchasing and potentially utilizing military grade firearms, most notably the tactical rifles, 33 round magazines, etc. Just seems like overkill, but the fact is that these weapon types are readily available for criminals, and i strongly believe that law abiding citizens should be able, if they so choose, to at the very least legally match criminal capabilities in the defense of their familys and property. So yes, i support tactical weapon sales to the general public. i wouldn't buy them because i personally live by humble means in a small neighborhood and presently have no need, but i can see how some may need them if living rurally or with much valuable property.

- MN
 
I was at a gun show about a week and a half ago. I bought a saturday night special. I had to fill out a 4473 and wait for the NICS check. Don't believe everything you see on the news.
 
1. We should not legislate each and every item that can be used with fatal results.
OK, so why pick this particular potentially lethal weapon and exclude all others? What makes this a threat greater than any other? What is your basis for the need you have for these to be regulated?

2. No Chicken Little. No falling sky. Again, I ask what basis you have for your predication that these will become favored weapons of the unlawful? You seem extremely upset by the lack of regulation, yet cannot show any factual basis as to why these would be a popular choice among criminals. Demanding a solution to a problem that has yet to be proven to exist is a bit chicken little like, don't you think? When you have a factual basis...rather than an opinion...as to why these types of airguns need to be regulated, we can talk. Laws shouldn't be based on theory, but rather a demonstrated need.

3. Never assumed anything, much less every 16 year old stealing Mom's credit card is going to go on a shooting spree. http://www.thehighroad.org//showpost.php?p=7408287&postcount=18 It sure seems like here you are embracing the potential for that to happen (even while saying theres no cooraltion between those that would steal and those that would murder elsewhere....which is it? You can't have it both ways.

4. Your example of what i never said is indeed far-reaching, however not in fact presumptuous. You are making an assumption with no factual basis to build it on. How is that not presumptuous?

5. Regarding any (therefore every) 16 year old knowing where to obtain a firearm, i agrediously disagree, and would add that most that do not have certainly not taken any obviously critical firearms training courses. You're right, most 16 year olds haven't taken a gun safety course.... but what does that have to do with the price of sand in egypt? I was simply stating that a teenager with criminal tendencies normally doesn't have difficulty in obtaining a gun. Knowing where to get one...and knowing how to use it...are two different things entirely. Good or bad, though, most teenagers don't have any trouble acquiring guns if they are in the market for one.

6. Theft and shooting sprees, from a criminologist's perspective, are in completely different catagories. Not to get too deep, but graduate level criminologists understand that there are some that would do the former and not the latter, and quite frankly vice versa, as well. One doesn't need a PHD to realize that there are people out there that may commit some crimes without necessarily committing all crimes. Thats just common sense. However, it is also common sense to assume that someone who has shown no respect for the law previously is likely to break the law again..... our correctional system of FULL of repeat offenders, with most prisons having revolving doors

7. Your premise regarding my belief of the oncoming reiteration of the Wild West is completely erroneous, dear sir, in fact i have no idea whatsoever where you were able to come up with that one. Easy enough...you are imaging a crime spree triggered by guns of the same type that have existed for decades with no rational basis to do so. Potentially lethal air rifles are not a new invention, but yet, they haven't become the weapon of choice for any sort of criminal. Why would the introduction of ONE MODEL change that instantly?

8. Regarding what legislation might accomplish, the saving of one net life, perhaps????

Completely unacceptable.... Why should we restrict the freedoms of all based on a hypothetical life that "may" be saved? Laws should address a demonstrated need, and at this time, no one has demonstrated a viable reason to regulate this sort of airgun

9. If such legislation existed, one such person would also be unable to obtain a firearm, so again, you would have to consult a graduate level criminologist with the details of particular case studies. No, actually I don't need to see case studies to draw some very simple conclusions. Every single day, felons are arrested while in possession of a firearm. Simply being unable to obtain one at the retail level doesn't mean they are "unable to obtain" firearms.



10. Gun control laws caused me a ~2 minute hoop to jump through, and there is no credibly agreed upon evidence to support the fact that gun control laws have no impact on criminal behavior. That, sir, is a theory, your opinion, and one that most distiguished stasticians disagree with. You may be correct, only time will tell, and to say anything else prior to statistical proof is naive and ignorant. Oh yeah, and theorys can not be statistically disproved- You can check on that.
http://www.thehighroad.org//editpost.php?do=editpost&p=7408799
And yet, for others, gun control is a huge PITA. Obtaining FOID cards, waiting for approveals, etc, etc etc...your 2 minutes of inconvience is hardly universal by any stretch of the imagination.....try buying a gun in Illinois for example......As far as your idea that gun control works....I've yet to see any sort of proof regarding that. yet, it is easily observed that areas like Washington DC and Chicago, which have extremely strict gun laws also suffer the highest rates of gun violence. While it may not be strictly casue and effect, can you tell me how gun control is NOT failing in these cities? Why is the gun crime rate not zero if gun control laws worked as planned, and moreso, why would the areas where lawful access to firearms is banned or at the very least discouraged by overzelous laws, be the most ravaged by crime? If guns were the source of the problems, wouldn't the cities with the highest number of gun owners be the most dangerous areas to live? Gun control is a failure, as it victimizes the law-abiding while having no effect on criminals. Therrefore, I'm against the implementation of new laws, and believe we have enough laws on the books already to deal with the misuse of firearms with new laws serving no purpose beyond what other laws can already handle
 
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But because he couldn't get a reasonable plea bargain, he ended up with a felony conviction.
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I work at a school with 200 felons. Do you know each and everyone of them will tell you they were railroaded and they got bum raps.
 
Good Point

9. If such legislation existed, one such person would also be unable to obtain a firearm, so again, you would have to consult a graduate level criminologist with the details of particular case studies. No, actually I don't need to see case studies to draw some very simple conclusions. Every single day, felons are arrested while in possession of a firearm. Simply being unable to obtain one at the retail level doesn't mean they are "unable to obtain" firearms.
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Again, I work at a school where teenagers get one last chance. Many of them are there on gun related charges, they are all minors.

When we discuss the second amendment these kids tell me it don't apply to them. They assure me that they can get any gun at any time on the street. They also assure me that no gun law, regulation, or paperwork will stop a gang banger from getting a gun.
 
the thought of minors with high powered air gun sniper rifles is a bit scary
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Until 1968, millions of minors in the US for several generations had access to smokeless gunpowder 'sniper rifles', and yet the use of such instruments in murders was no greater than today (per the DoJ's own statistics).

We've been down the 'how do gun laws protect us?' path before, and the cold hard statistics always tell the tale - they do not. They exist to make some folk feel good, and to give other folk something to do.

If they make you feel better - so be it. But do not presume to state that they actually add real value, because that value is not demonstrated where in counts...

It also bears pointing out that discussion of gun laws is not appropriate for a thread in Rifles. If someone wants to start a new thread in Legal about these guns, that would be fine. Otherwise, this thread is expected to discuss the hardware itself and not the legal aspects of ownership.
 
We've been down the 'how do gun laws protect us?' path before, and the cold hard statistics always tell the tale - they do not. They exist to make some folk feel good, and to give other folk something to do.
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What makes matters worse is that many gun laws are not well enforced. It is a felony for felons to even attempt to purchase a gun. Yet, this crime is hardly enforced.

They will continue to enact new gun laws, not even enforce them, and then conclude that they don't work. The only solution then will be a gun ban.
 
Just to head back 'round to the hardware...

This isn't terribly new. Lewis and Clarke carried with them an air rifle of very similar capabilities in their exploration of the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqFyKh-rUI

That one was of about .51 caliber and held 20 or 22 balls!

What a terror we face from this 200 year-old technology! ;)
 
Damnit, Sam I wanted to point that out. They were used by austria against Napoleon also. In fact Napoleon hated 'em so much that he put a bounty on the heads of anyone using one.

I do think everyone is feeding a (not very) clever troll, however. The >FACTS< are that most criminally used firearms are cheap and concealable. This is neither. No appreciable threat. Nothing to see here, move on.
 
Thank you Sam1911! Mashie, your concerns are very misplaced chronologically. In other words, you are behind the times by centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun

There are several makers of hunting air rifles.

http://www.airgundepot.com/varmint-hunting-airguns.html
http://www.pyramydair.com/career-dragon-slayer-review.shtml
http://www.airgundepot.com/22caliber-air-rifles.html
http://www.airgunsbbguns.com/career_707_shinsung_air_rifle_pcp_s/99.htm

If the Crossman scared you, the Quackenbush will terrify you...
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

Here are some trophy pics of hunters using air rifles to hunt boar, coyote, deer, buffalo, and bear...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iplJtnsms6M&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwAaXnbuwXc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
 
Gun control laws caused me a ~2 minute hoop to jump through, and there is no credibly agreed upon evidence to support the fact that gun control laws have no impact on criminal behavior. That, sir, is a theory, your opinion, and one that most distiguished stasticians disagree with. You may be correct, only time will tell, and to say anything else prior to statistical proof is naive and ignorant. Oh yeah, and theorys can not be statistically disproved- You can check on that.
Click to expand...

Clearly you didn't click on the link I provided back on page 2:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm
During 2000--2002, the Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force), an independent nonfederal task force, conducted a systematic review of scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of firearms laws in preventing violence, including violent crimes, suicide, and unintentional injury. The following laws were evaluated: bans on specified firearms or ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition, waiting periods for firearm acquisition, firearm registration and licensing of firearm owners, "shall issue" concealed weapon carry laws, child access prevention laws, zero tolerance laws for firearms in schools, and combinations of firearms laws. The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.) This report briefly describes how the reviews were conducted, summarizes the Task Force findings, and provides information regarding needs for future research.
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The CDC is hardly the NRA, some might even say call them anti-gun. Yet all they were able to come up with was "well, we didn't find evidence that any of these gun control laws work ... but that doesn't mean they don't!"

It also struck me as downright funny when you said this air rifle was "suppressed". It's an air rifle. Do you expect this hypothetical law on air rifles to include a provision that every air rifle comes with a trained monkey who stands behind you and bangs cymbals together every time you pull the trigger? :confused:
 
Gun control laws caused me a ~2 minute hoop to jump through

Yes.
Interesting how modern technology and a large bureaucracy have made getting your rights infringed so painless, isn't it? Kind of like "Why should we need a warrant, you don't have anything to hide, do you?"
 
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