.40 for hiking?

[Lone_Gunman]

I wonder what your experience is, Lone?

I have only seen a few, and it was at a long distance. I didnt mess with them, they didnt mess with me.

But that is kind of the point of me asking the questions. Why prepare for a rare encounter by selecting the perfect weapon for it, but at the same time leave yourself with a sub-optimal weapon for the most common type of encounter? Thats what picking a 44 magnum for a trail gun does, at least in the South East.

 

[goon]

I have come across several bears in the wild, some while hunting and some while just hiking. Three times I have been within feet of them. In every case the bear just sort of kept on about his business and didn't bother me any. Not to say that they can't be dangerous but the chances of having to shoot one probably aren't as great as we like to imagine while we discuss muzzle velocities.
One guy I used to work with shot a black bear 5 times with a .308 before he killed it. He was using 165 grain handloads. He was hunting and he shot the bear the first time. The bear took exception to this and charged him. Personally, getting shot would anger me too. Had he not shot the bear, the bear would almost certainly not have charged at him, thus necessitating the firing of several rounds at said bear.
I am not against hunting, but the moral to this story is that if you look for trouble you will probably find it. If this guy had missed the last time the bear would have probably killed him.
If a .308 won't reliably do it, I doubt that a .44 or even a 30'06 could be counted on to do it either.
Even a 9mm will penetrate like hell with FMJ bullets and if you got 15-17 rounds in the mag, you are probably as well off as anyone. A .44 or .45 LC is better suited but if you can't hit where you want to with them, I would still stick with something smaller, even a 9mm.


So carry your .40 in case you need to defend yourself but show the bears some respect and you will probably be OK.

 

[azredhawk44]

I've been within about 50 feet of bears in the wild twice, and about 25 feet of mountain lions twice.

I'm much more afraid of the mountain lions than the bears. The bears were very docile... even the 800+ pound black bear I saw in the Olympic mountains of washington.

Shot placement will save your bacon well above cartridge power, especially considering the fact that your major threats in the wild are still on 2 legs.

Unless you've got proficiency in your big wheelgun, you are making a mistake by packing a 44mag for defensive purposes, IMO. I put about 1500 rounds a year through mine to build and maintain proficiency.

 

[slzy]

a black bear killed a child in sequatchie tenn.,i think, a couple of years ago.so it can and does happen. i would sure carry the biggest thing i could if i thought i had to shoot any bear.

 

[pablo45]

I think that everyone put's these bear's as these super being creatures. Do they bleed? YES Do they have a heart and vital orgin's? YES Are they scared of you more then you are scared of them? Probably. The .40 is a good round for hiking because it does not have an over kill look to it. Let's all not forget the story about the guy who shot a man in the wood's with a .45 and the jury hung him because the bullet they said was an over kill. And this all started because of dog's.
Protect yourself with what you feel comfortable with. If i was being attacked by a bear i would use whatever i had. If you must shoot try shooting in the air and scaring it away or just leave it alone. More then likely it will leave you alone. I have never heard of bear hunting human's and if they did by the sound of everyone you would need a rocket launcher to destroy these indistructable creature's. If a 9mm can punch through 3 inch thick concrete i am sure a .40 will work on 1 inch skin.

 

[azredhawk44]

I think that everyone put's these bear's as these super being creatures. Do they bleed? YES Do they have a heart and vital orgin's? YES Are they scared of you more then you are scared of them? Probably. The .40 is a good round for hiking because it does not have an over kill look to it. Let's all not forget the story about the guy who shot a man in the wood's with a .45 and the jury hung him because the bullet they said was an over kill. And this all started because of dog's.

Bad info and assumptions, pablo.

That AZ case you are talking about had nothing to do with weapon power... there was a little twitter made by the DA about "deadly hollowpoints", but the fact remains it was proven to a jury to be a bad shoot, regardless of whether it was a 32acp or a 454.

Bears have slow heart rates and if you intend to put them down with a body shot it had better be from a ways off... 100 yards or more. It will take a long time for their blood pressure drop-off from blood loss to put them down. There's a lot of blood, and a slow pump. That equals a slow leak. He can leisurely walk up to you and stomp you if he chooses at that point. The only way to put him down with a handgun is with either a CNS hit or shattering his mode of transport... shoulders and hips. A .44 mag allows for the second option whereas a .40 cannot reliably do so. A 40 or 9mm can score a CNS hit with the right shot however.

 

[slzy]

i googled bear attacks in tennessee,and only 2 fatalities have been recorded,one in may of 2000 the other april of '06. one in cherokee forest and the childs brother and mother were injured. someone shot a 380 at the bear,which left. the other was in the smokies park. would time of year contributed to these attacks?

 

[doubleg]

If you want a true semi auto for bear defense get a 1911. Make sure its an all steel model. Then change to a heavier recoil spring and buy some .45 super.

 

[Professor K]

Well, assuming you dont have a Thompson Contender, I guess a .40 cal should do it for a bear. If it isnt stopped the first time, then you have at least 10 more shots, sometimes 15. Then you got more mags, right? Or, you could just go shoot it in the head.

Dont go kill it unless it's a real threat, though. If it's minding your own business, then you should mind your's, too.

 

[MD_Willington]

Google cougar attacks, Vancouver Island will come up quite a bit...

I agree, cougars are an elevated threat over bears in my book..

There's a reason we'd take a remi-870 into the bush with us back home, it wasn't for bears.

 

[Ddamn]

The biggest issue isn't "could" whatever caliber kill a bear. Clearly there's plenty of people who use handguns to hunt large game, bear among them. The key differences between that scenario and someone hiking and stumbling upon a dangerous animal is the hiker isn't in a tree stand, or behind a blind, using bait, or like most hunters trying to get the drop on their critter of choice. In those situations its not common (or smart) for a sportsman to be out there hunting large carnivores, by themselves, armed with only a handgun and not also carrying a rifle. The hiking scenario will play out much faster, and be certainly more stressful. I personally don't care who or with what .44 magnum they got their bear with, the element of surprise was on their side, and they had time to try and get a perfect shot. A hiker has perhaps only seconds and more importantly perhaps only a single chance. So who you gonna call? 3 inch magnum slug, thats who. If your walking into bear country armed with a pistol, you better be William Tell.

 

[briansp82593]

ok i think a 40 would be fine... but... heres what i would do...
mag:
2 magsafe defenders
2 hornady tap 180 grn
5 fmjs
and one of these to top it off

 

[rolltide]

Here is part of a quote on the subject of handguns and bears. This man has hunted professionally most of his life. He has killed close to 100 black bears personally WITH A HANDGUN. He has been guide on many bear hunts where his clients insisted on using handguns he felt were underpowered. He has seen the results of using these calibers first hand. To protect his client, himself, and/or his dogs, he often had to finish the bear off with his own handgun when the clients handgun failed to stop the bruin. He carries a 44 mag.

No conjecture here, just the facts from a man who has been there and done that dozens of times as far as hunting and STOPPING bears with a handgun. I bolded a couple passages that are particularly applicable to this post.

THIS QUOTE IS ABOUT BLACK BEARS, MR. HACK DOES NOT RECOMMEND HANDGUNS FOR BIGGER BEARS.

During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38 special. It’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!


The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don’t mistake me here, I don’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.


This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don’t seem to be able to manage consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.


Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

partial quote from JJ HACK as posted at Graybeard's Outdoors Forum
www.huntingadventures.net
[email protected]

 

[rolltide]

Here is another post by the same professional hunter quoted above. Here he is talking about the difference between HUNTING black bears and shooting black bears IN DEFENSE OF LIFE. Very useful information.

I might be able to save you some grief and give you a reliable and proven solution. I have had to kill several hundred bears in my life. Many were not in a very happy mood and quite a few would have had my hide torn off PDQ had it not been they were in a foot snare. My Job as a bear hunting guide and as a wildlife manager for many years gave me insight into some conditions regular folks might only see once in a hundred life-times!

First the .44 magnum is plenty of gun for blackbear self defense. Not for brownies!

Next we have to consider the difference between hunting bears and stopping or imobilizing bears instantly. There is enough difference between the two that many folks get confused when they talk about the ammunition they are suggesting for the gun your asking about. If I were hunting bears a heavy hard cast bullet would be a fair choice. It leaves two .430 diameter holes and usually enough blood to follow to the trophy. The key part of that phrase is "follow to the trophy" !
You will be following the bear because the heavy hardcast bullets will in every case whistle through at a handgun hunting distance broadside shot. This impact is about the equal to a field tipped arrow. The bear has very little reaction except to hunch up for a brief moment and spring forward running as fast as possible often times covering 100 yards and remaining alive for another 30 seconds to a minute or more. Sometimes requiring a follow up shot.
Now consider the bear who is a threat to you. Broadside is out, and bears do not attack while standing. So you have an animal coming at high speed with his head only inches from the ground. If you shoot at his head while the distance is closing you will hit him in the guts without proper lead. That is not an easy thing to do without significant practice. If you have the foresight to concentrate while in a panic and shoot at the ground in front of his head you might make a neck or head shot, feel lucky? If you're using hardcast bullets and miss the spine or brain you're getting hit and knocked silly before you even realize what is going on. It's happened to me so I speak from first hand experience on this.
The heavy hard cast bullets don't disrupt enough tissue to crumple or stall a bear unless a perfect CNS hit is made, Feel lucky? The better choice and I say this after trying so many loads and killing so many bears I feel the research is nearly indisputable, is the common 240 grain hollowpoint. I have used many types but having done research with Hornady to develope the XTP bullet in the 80's I feel the XTP is as good as any bullet or even better. I have seen nearly every bear hit with a Garrett bullet run a long way unless CNS hits were made. However with a 240 hollowpoint the bears will spin like a top and bite at the wound trying to get the burning "bee" out of there hide. This allows many more shots. I have also seen them fall at impact and roll aound on the ground while bawling their heads off allowing more shots. These bullets rarely exit and tear up so much tissue that the bears really show amazing impact effect when compared to the 300 grain hardcast bullets most folks want for hunting. I would not use a 300 grain hard cast bullet for bears as a first choice. Bears are soft and usually small for such a bullet. Those should be used for really big animals with difficult to break bones like elk moose bison and brown bears. Nothing under 400 pounds really needs bullets with that heavy "zip through" construction that a 300 plus grain hard cast construction offers with the exception of wild hogs which have a very thick heavy gristle plate which can prematurely stop softer hollow point bullets.

The reaction to dozens if not over 100 bears has given me these feelings not just a bear here and there with random shot placement. Many of the bears shot while hunting are calm and relaxed, the reaction when they are hit is by a significant margin different then when a bear that is agressive and charging you. When we had bears snared that were hit in the chest with a hardcast bullet they continued to pull on the cable to get at us. When bears were shot with the 220-250 grain hollow points most if not all recoiled back and bit at their wound. They always stopped fighting and realized they had bigger trouble then the human they were attacking. The reaction was much different and very consistant. I for one will always carry 240 grain hollow points in my .44 mag revolver and never worry about having enough stopping power for black bears.

JJ HACK quoted from Graybeards Outdoors Forum
www.huntingadventures.net
[email protected]