jhei88
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Where can i find load data for .40 sw with Hogdon hs6 and berrys 180 grain jacketed hollow points
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40 s and w load data
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J2FLAN
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That would be tough, BERRY`S are plated.
I have loaded them useing Hodgdons data for 180gr HDY XTP, the STARTING load. Rule of thumb-use lead data when loading plated bullets, well maybe "Rule" is not the right word. BERRY MFG. may have load info.
I have loaded them useing Hodgdons data for 180gr HDY XTP, the STARTING load. Rule of thumb-use lead data when loading plated bullets, well maybe "Rule" is not the right word. BERRY MFG. may have load info.
LiveLife
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Berry's bullets are plated and they recommend you use either lead load data or start-to-mid range jacketed load data - http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx
Hodgdon load data:
Lyman #49 load data (keep in mind that Lyman used .401" diameter bullet with larger .401" groove diameter test barrel instead of more typical .400" for 40S&W barrel):
Since Berry's 40S&W bullets are sized at .401" and Lyman used larger groove diameter test fixture barrel, if your barrel's groove diameter is .400", I would conduct my powder work up below the lower published start charge for jacketed, this case 6.1 gr. If your barrel's groove diameter is larger at .401", then I guess you can use Lyman lead load data that I believe used 15 BHN #2 alloy bullets. To add to the confusion, note that Hodgdon used PSI for average max chamber pressures and Lyman used CUP.
I hope this helped.
Hodgdon load data:
Lyman #49 load data (keep in mind that Lyman used .401" diameter bullet with larger .401" groove diameter test barrel instead of more typical .400" for 40S&W barrel):
Since Berry's 40S&W bullets are sized at .401" and Lyman used larger groove diameter test fixture barrel, if your barrel's groove diameter is .400", I would conduct my powder work up below the lower published start charge for jacketed, this case 6.1 gr. If your barrel's groove diameter is larger at .401", then I guess you can use Lyman lead load data that I believe used 15 BHN #2 alloy bullets. To add to the confusion, note that Hodgdon used PSI for average max chamber pressures and Lyman used CUP.
I hope this helped.
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Stormin.40
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You will love HS-6, I use it in all my 40 loads. As mention just use lead data and work up. I have typically ended up at mid level loads using plated bullets and HS-6, but I worked up to it. I found HS-6 to be dirty at first but as I increased the charge it became very clean even with lead.
There seems to be an irrational fear of using a bullet that is 0.001" larger than normal, and usually from folks who have no idea either how bullet size affects pressure or what their barrel's groove diameteer really is.
For lead bullets or thin-plated bullets, your gun will not even KNOW if the bullet was .400, .401, or .402".
Note that Lyman MATCHED the bullet to the bore.
Everyone should do the same for jacketed bullets (and, maybe, plated?). Lead should almost always be AT LEAST 0.001" over groove diameter.
The "nice" thing about jacketed bullets is they perform well even if they are 0.001" under groove diameter.
I have fired a LOT of 0.357" jacketed bullets in various 9x19 guns without any problem (as have many reloaders), and other than, in several cases, being more accurate than any of the 0.355" bullets I could find at the time (late '70s), I was quite pleased and continue to be.
For lead bullets or thin-plated bullets, your gun will not even KNOW if the bullet was .400, .401, or .402".
Note that Lyman MATCHED the bullet to the bore.
Everyone should do the same for jacketed bullets (and, maybe, plated?). Lead should almost always be AT LEAST 0.001" over groove diameter.
The "nice" thing about jacketed bullets is they perform well even if they are 0.001" under groove diameter.
I have fired a LOT of 0.357" jacketed bullets in various 9x19 guns without any problem (as have many reloaders), and other than, in several cases, being more accurate than any of the 0.355" bullets I could find at the time (late '70s), I was quite pleased and continue to be.
LiveLife
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I respectfully, absolutely disagree. How does gas cutting and bullet base erosion occur? High pressure powder ignition gas leakage, DUE TO lack of proper bullet-to-barrel fit (typically bullet diameter .001" or greater than the groove diameter of the barrel), insufficient deformation of the bullet base (obturation), inadequacy of lube to seal the bullet to the barrel, etc.; but most importantly, lack of proper bullet-to-barrel fit.noylj said:
I just took the picture of page 362 of Lyman #49 and it clearly shows cast bullets used were sized at .401" and groove diameter of the Universal Receiver is .401". I think this may explain many higher than Hodgdon load data for same weight/type bullets.
I am in absolute agreement!noylj said:
Ummmm, that's because the heavier jacketing is supposed to ride the rifling or the "bore diameter" of the barrel instead of the "groove diameter"? Am I wrong?
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Posted by: bds
On: January 11, 2012 11:41 PM
---Quote (Originally by noylj )---
For lead bullets or thin-plated bullets, your gun will not even KNOW if the bullet was .400, .401, or .402".
Note that Lyman MATCHED the bullet to the bore.
---End Quote---
I respectfully, absolutely disagree. How does gas cutting and bullet base erosion occur? High pressure powder ignition gas leakage, DUE TO lack of proper bullet-to-barrel fit (typically bullet diameter .001" or greater than the groove diameter of the barrel), insufficient deformation of the bullet base (obturation), inadequacy of lube to seal the bullet to the barrel, etc.; but most importantly, lack of proper bullet-to-barrel fit.
Sorry, you must not have read in context. At that point, I am not addressing bullet fit. I am addressing the fear of using a bullet that is 0.001" over what the loader "thinks" his barrel's groove diameter is, since he got an absolutely perfectly chambered gun. CONTEXT. READ IT. LEARN IT. Your point was made later when I WAS discussing bullet fit.
You see, the bullet diameter debate, without knowing the barrel's groove diameter, has always struck me as a sign of missing the point.
How many gun magazine articles have discussed that you MUST use 0.224" bullets in the .223 Rem? I have NEVER seen even one article where they determined just what EXACTLY the barrel's groove diameter was. They ASSUME that the rifle is chambered EXACTLY to the nominal dimensions. They never even address the issue that I don't think there is a rifle out there that could tell a 0.223", 0.224", or a 0.225" bullet of the same shape, except maybe under the most intense long-range shooting. They just bloviate without ever looking at the history of bullet diameters that have been used successfully. In fact, many of them I believe have never really used a reloading press.
Re: jacketed bullets. Unlike lead or thin plated bullets, the jacket is thick enough that the hot gas jet going past the unsealed bore will NOT to cause bullet erosion or damage the base, so a JACKETED bullet, 0.001" under groove diameter shoots just fine. Now, your barrel may be seeing some effect from the hot gas jet, but the bullet will still shoot just fine. Thankfully, barrel erosion does not immediately destroy accuracy and most people don't have the equipment to look for it.
Look at 9x19. Groove diameter can range from 0.3545-0.362". Yet, most people go through life assuming their barrel is perfectly nominal at 0.355" and shoot 0.355" jacketed bullets.
Then, they know that their .38 Super is perfectly nominal at 0.356", so they ONLY shoot 0.356" jacketed bullets.
For best accuracy, jacketed bullets should be groove diameter or very slightly larger. For best accuracy and minimal leading, cast lead bullet should be AT LEAST 0.001" over groove diameter and 0.002" is often better.
It all goes back to NOT knowing your barrel and what it needs/prefers for best performance and being sure that nominal is optimum and anything else is dangerous.
On: January 11, 2012 11:41 PM
---Quote (Originally by noylj )---
For lead bullets or thin-plated bullets, your gun will not even KNOW if the bullet was .400, .401, or .402".
Note that Lyman MATCHED the bullet to the bore.
---End Quote---
I respectfully, absolutely disagree. How does gas cutting and bullet base erosion occur? High pressure powder ignition gas leakage, DUE TO lack of proper bullet-to-barrel fit (typically bullet diameter .001" or greater than the groove diameter of the barrel), insufficient deformation of the bullet base (obturation), inadequacy of lube to seal the bullet to the barrel, etc.; but most importantly, lack of proper bullet-to-barrel fit.
Sorry, you must not have read in context. At that point, I am not addressing bullet fit. I am addressing the fear of using a bullet that is 0.001" over what the loader "thinks" his barrel's groove diameter is, since he got an absolutely perfectly chambered gun. CONTEXT. READ IT. LEARN IT. Your point was made later when I WAS discussing bullet fit.
You see, the bullet diameter debate, without knowing the barrel's groove diameter, has always struck me as a sign of missing the point.
How many gun magazine articles have discussed that you MUST use 0.224" bullets in the .223 Rem? I have NEVER seen even one article where they determined just what EXACTLY the barrel's groove diameter was. They ASSUME that the rifle is chambered EXACTLY to the nominal dimensions. They never even address the issue that I don't think there is a rifle out there that could tell a 0.223", 0.224", or a 0.225" bullet of the same shape, except maybe under the most intense long-range shooting. They just bloviate without ever looking at the history of bullet diameters that have been used successfully. In fact, many of them I believe have never really used a reloading press.
Re: jacketed bullets. Unlike lead or thin plated bullets, the jacket is thick enough that the hot gas jet going past the unsealed bore will NOT to cause bullet erosion or damage the base, so a JACKETED bullet, 0.001" under groove diameter shoots just fine. Now, your barrel may be seeing some effect from the hot gas jet, but the bullet will still shoot just fine. Thankfully, barrel erosion does not immediately destroy accuracy and most people don't have the equipment to look for it.
Look at 9x19. Groove diameter can range from 0.3545-0.362". Yet, most people go through life assuming their barrel is perfectly nominal at 0.355" and shoot 0.355" jacketed bullets.
Then, they know that their .38 Super is perfectly nominal at 0.356", so they ONLY shoot 0.356" jacketed bullets.
For best accuracy, jacketed bullets should be groove diameter or very slightly larger. For best accuracy and minimal leading, cast lead bullet should be AT LEAST 0.001" over groove diameter and 0.002" is often better.
It all goes back to NOT knowing your barrel and what it needs/prefers for best performance and being sure that nominal is optimum and anything else is dangerous.
>Ummmm, that's because the heavier jacketing is supposed to ride the rifling or the "bore diameter" of the barrel instead of the "groove diameter"? Am I wrong?
Ummm, you're wrong. There are cast lead rifle bullets where a length of the bullet shank is bore diameter, so the bullet can be seated and aligned to the bore, but this is not applicable to common handgun bullets, except, maybe, the Rem. G.S.
Ummm, you're wrong. There are cast lead rifle bullets where a length of the bullet shank is bore diameter, so the bullet can be seated and aligned to the bore, but this is not applicable to common handgun bullets, except, maybe, the Rem. G.S.
LiveLife
Member
My apologies.noylj said:
Yes, I agree. Often there are threads/posts made complaining "I am having such and such problem with such and such bullet/powder/pistol" and blame is assumed or expressed without verifying all the reloading variables.
Most of the reloaders use published load data (whether from powder or bullet manufacturers) that often used "tighter" groove diameter test barrels (.355" for 9mm, .400" for 40S&W, .451" for 45ACP, etc.) even though their factory barrels' groove diameters maybe oversized (Yes, slug your barrel first to determine the groove diameter!
). Since there maybe greater high pressure gas leakage in oversized barrels, this may result in increased variations in chamber pressure, increased variations and decreased muzzle velocities, decreased accuracy for jacketed bullets and increased gas cutting/bullet base erosion, increased leading and decreased accuracy for lead bullets in such barrels.The reason why I use the notion "Accuracy is everything" is this. Most of us lack the precise laboratory grade measurement devices (scales, calipers/micrometers, strain gauge for chamber pressures, chrono, etc.) and often rely on consumer grade tools that have inherent accuracy deviations. I mean in reality, powder charge measurements could be off by .1-.3+ gr for some reloaders depending on the type of scale used and how they were calibrated/zeroed and used; calipers could be off by .001"-.002"+ depending on the wear/quality of design/manufacture/QC and user; and how many times do we hear about the variations of chrono measurements depending on the brightness of the sun on range day. How accurate does a chrono function after being shot?
How often do reloaders have their chrono reading accuracy verified by the manufacturer? (unlike scales, there are no check weights for chronos ). I figure, with the combined sum of all these reloading variations, net outcome of shot group accuracy may be the best tool available to the average reloaders to determine the consistency of reloading practices.It does happen.
I agree mostly as typical JACKETED bullets are sized at .355" for 9mm, .400" for 40S&W, .451" for 45ACP, etc. I think it would be difficult to obtain true jacketed bullets sized at .356"/.401"/.452" etc. Regardless, at high-to-max load data, there may be enough deformation of the jacketed bullet base (even for JHP bullets with no exposed lead base) to provide enough seal with the barrel to produce consistent enough chamber pressures for accuracy. Many USPSA/IDPA match shooters use JHP loads and my preference over the years have been 40S&W Montana Gold 155 gr FMJ or 165 gr JHP with very acceptable level of shot group accuracy even with using high range load data for match shooting.
As for your comments applied to plated bullets, I am in full agreement. For me, plated bullets are simply lead bullets with thinner full-length gas checks. I used to practice primarily with Rainier bullets sized the same as jacketed bullets, but wondered why Berry's and other plated bullet manufacturers (PowerBond/X-Treme) offered larger sized bullets. I think this may be due to (I think Jay from Berry's MFG may have posted on this before on THR) their own product testing showed greater level of accuracy with larger sized bullets in "most/typical" factory barrels/pistols with some of them being oversized barrels.
Sorry for the long post, but to be honest, all of these may be a moot point if we take these new products into consideration. Berry's offer Hollow Base plated bullets that (based on my testing) seem to expand the base better to seal with the barrel even with mid-to-high range lead load data and start-to-mid range jacketed load data.
The Hollow Base plated bullets may be the answer to those with oversized factory barrel who maybe experiencing accuracy issues with typical target/range load powder/charges and jacketed/plated bullets. If your 9mm barrel is oversized at .356"-.358"+, it would be hard to get plated bullets sized at .358" (even X-Treme only offers 9mm bullets sized at .355"/.356"/.357").
For lead bullets loaded to lighter target loads, softer bullet alloy with lower BHN that still deform to seal with the barrel. Missouri Bullet offers 9mm bullets in 18 BHN (15 BHN for 147 gr) and 45ACP bullets in 18/12 BHN. I shoot a lot and prefer mid-range load data target loads with 200 gr SWC bullet to put less stress on my wrists. In my PT145 with oversized barrel (.455"+), use of 12 BHN bullet (Bullseye #1) allowed me to maintain accuracy with mid-range 5.0 gr of W231/HP-38 and even lighter recoiling 4.0 gr of Promo/Red Dot, which my wife favors. The softer 12 BHN bullet also allowed me to use the same sized bullets for my other 45 pistols (M&P45/Sig 1911) instead of having different sized bullet loads.
"Accuracy is everything - Holes on target speak volumes"
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