40 vs 45

[REAPER4206969]

You're welcome.

 

[Gryffydd]

yeah, but that double tap ammo is pushed to pressure levels that are beyond SAAMI specs, and is not recommended in glocks or any other gun that does not have a fully supported chamber (like my emp40, which has less case support than the glock 40cals).

That's all well and good. The important thing is to compare similar ammo. Don't do like KevinR and compare nuclear .40S&W loads with super light target .45 loads.
My reason for picking Doubletap is that it shows the absolute top end for both.

 

[Confederate]

There is a problem in trying to assess calibers by small numbers of shootings. For example, as has been done, if a number of shootings were collected in which only one hit was attained and the percentage of one shot stops was then calculated, it would appear to be a valid system. However, if a large number of people are predisposed to fall down, the actual caliber and bullet are irrelevant. What percentage of those stops were thus preordained by the target? How many of those targets were not at all disposed to fall down? How many multiple shot failures to stop occurred? What is the definition of a stop? What did the successful bullets hit and what did the unsuccessful bullets hit? How many failures were in the vital organs, and how many were not? How many of the successes? What is the number of the sample? How were the cases collected? What verifications were made to validate the information? How can the verifications be checked by independent investigation?

Yes...but [the .357 125gr JHP] is not the "one-shot stop death ray" the uninitiated make it out to be.

It may not be the one-shot-stop "death ray," but I don't believe that any other caliber or load is its equal. For years, those who have been shot with this load and survived have been interviewed. They almost invariably say they were physically overwhelmed after being hit, even in the extremities. No handgun round is perfect in stopping power, but I don't believe there's any round that's better than, or equal to, the .357 125gr JHP. It's been years since I've studied the data, but when I did back in the early 80s, I was thoroughly impressed with what I read. The fact that so many have tried to emulate this load in semi-auto loads is a tribute to its effectiveness.

While traveling cross country, it's the load I carry. In my home, I choose a .38 Spc load. I put a great deal of stock in bullet placement, but in the past I've traveled with and been very comfortable with a .22 Ruger Standard Auto. While not generally deemed an adequate self defense round, the Ruger's sheer firepower makes it as comforting as having a much larger caliber. Overall, I think people underrate handguns. Even the lowly .25 has been used to put people down and out, and I've yet to read a press account of a small caliber failing to defend someone. In fact, in a surprising number of cases, the tiny caliber has killed an attacker.

Even so, sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you! Bottom line: If there's a better load out there than the 125gr JHP .357, I've yet to hear about it.

.

 

[REAPER4206969]

For years, those who have been shot with this load and survived have been interviewed. They almost invariably say they were physically overwhelmed after being hit, even in the extremities.

Did their brain bleed too?

The fact that so many have tried to emulate this load in semi-auto loads is a tribute to its effectiveness.

It's a tribute to good marketing.

Even the lowly .25 has been used to put people down and out, and I've yet to read a press account of a small caliber failing to defend someone. In fact, in a surprising number of cases, the tiny caliber has killed an attacker.

man who police said shot his Wal-Mart co-worker in a dispute over the length of a work break has been released from custody because his actions may be protected by Montana's recently enacted "castle doctrine" law.

The shooting, which took place Monday evening, is under investigation by the Billings Police Department and could still result in charges. But Yellowstone County Attorney Dennis Paxinos said language in the "castle doctrine" bill passed during the last session of the Montana Legislature required him to release the shooter until more information becomes available.

The law asserts, among other things, that a person has a "natural right" to use firearms for self-defense and is not required to summon law enforcement assistance before using "justifiable" force to ward off an attack.

"The play of (House Bill) 228 with the current law causes us some pause to do a much more thorough investigation to determine if we can charge anyone," Paxinos said.

When police arrived at the Wal-Mart on King Avenue West at about 9:15 p.m. Monday, they found Daniel Lira, 32, inside the store's loading dock area with a gunshot wound.

Billings Police Sgt. Jay Berry said that Lira hit co-worker Craig Schmidt, 49, in the face. Schmidt fell backward, then pulled out a .25-caliber semiautomatic Beretta handgun and shot Lira, police said. The single shot was fired at a range of 10 to 15 feet.

Lira, 32, was taken to St. Vincent Healthcare and later released. Police Sgt. Kevin Iffland said the bullet grazed the side of his head from front to back.

Paxinos said that prior to passage of House Bill 228 authorities would have had probable cause to arrest Schmidt for assault with a weapon.

Now, he said, they need more details about whether there was a history of aggression between the two men, what they may have said to each other when the incident occurred and other information that will shape whether it was reasonable for Schmidt to believe his life was threatened. Other details such as the size of the two men - Schmidt weighs 150 pounds and Lira weighs 300 pounds - could also affect whether a self-defense claim is reasonable, Paxinos said.

"I'll have to do the investigation while the guy is free to move around," said Paxinos, who along with other county attorneys opposed House Bill 228 during the legislative session.

The "castle doctrine" bill, which was sponsored by Republican Rep. Krayton Kerns of Laurel and supported by the National Rifle Association, sparked passionate debate about self-defense rights before passing the Legislature.

"Once somebody punches you, and you're down and incapacitated, that person has already demonstrated an intent for violence and you can't tactically assume that they're only going to hit you once," said Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, who crafted the bill.

But those opposing the "castle doctrine" legislation argued that existing law already protects those acting in self-defense, and that the new code would only create unnecessary burdens for prosecutors and police officers.

"There's just such a disconnect between words on paper and what happens on the streets of Montana, and I think legislators had to be more sensitive to what's happening on the street," said Jim Smith, spokesman for the Montana County Attorneys Association.

Aside from potential legal charges, it was unclear if Schmidt or Lira will face disciplinary action from Wal-Mart. Schmidt has a permit to carry the concealed weapon, but a spokesman for the company said it would be inappropriate to discuss whether Wal-Mart has a policy about employees carrying guns.

"We are still gathering details at this time, and we're now most concerned about the well-being of the people involved," Kelly Cheeseman said.

 

[PAPACHUCK]

Any quality, service caliber handgun, with quality JHP ammo, will do the job.

You have to do yours.

Shoot the gun/caliber YOU shoot best.

Shot placement rules, period.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

" Police Sgt. Kevin Iffland said the bullet grazed the side of his head from front to back."

So he either nearly missed the guy, or hit the head but the bullet failed to pierce the skull? The guy did discontinue his "attack" anyway from what the story says, so even though its a pretty poor example of a .25 auto being used as a defense, it still ends in the "threat" being stopped.

 

[KevinR]

compare both when using the control of one company and one bullet design (ex: compare two PMC loads of common grain-sized bullets) and you'll see that the .45 is about even with or above the .40 in terms of energy.

Hornady Catalog with lightest bullet for each factory load

40 S&W = 1180FPS @ 489 ftlbs
45 Auto = 970FPS @ 388 ftlbs

 

[lilidiot]

Just take a look at the "Box of Truth" .40 is a bummer and no better than 9x19.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

 

[Gryffydd]

Hornady Catalog with lightest bullet for each factory load

Also from Hornady: 45 Auto = 1055FPS @ 494 ftlbs

Cherry picking your data isn't helping your case. Look at all the manufacturers and you'll find that the .40 does not out pace the .45 when comparing the best loads from each.

 

[NG VI]

You also see that it isn't significantly better or significantly worse... Maybe shot placement, recoil profile, and capacity matter most?

Sweet. Yet another excuse to practice more.

 

[NMGonzo]

I, for one, don't want to be shot with any of the commercial offerings.

 

[NG VI]

So you'd be down with being shot with a handloaded service caliber?

 

[CHEVELLE427]

anything is better then a sharp rock on the end of a stick

off duty cop here killed someone with a 22lr a few months back

 

[saturno_v]

The whole idea was to develop a semi-auto round that would be the semi-auto version of the venerable .357 magnum.

Confederate

Not at all...the equivalent (and some more) of a 357 Mag in a semi-auto package already existed....the name was 10mm Auto but the smaller framed FBI agents could not take the recoil.

The 10mm smaller brother, the 40 S&W, was designed to reach 45 ACP performance level in a 9mm frame size with double stack magazine.

It did reach its intended purpose very effectively (and the huge commercial success is a proof of that) but the 40 S&W is no 357 Mag....(full power 357 Mag that is)

 

[easyg]

Just take a look at the "Box of Truth" .40 is a bummer and no better than 9x19.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

I wouldn't say it's a "bummer".
After all, when they both expand the .40 will still made a bigger hole.
And when neither expand the .40 will still made a bigger hole.

I like the 9mm, but there's just no getting around the fact that the .40 offers a bigger and heavier bullet traveling at nearly the same speed as the 9mm.
And in most pistols the mag capacity is very close.

And from everything that I have seen, heard, and read, the .40 is better at bringing down the bad guys.

 

[lilidiot]

From what I have seen and read the 9x18 Makarov is also real good at bringing down bad guns too and has been doing it much longer as well.

The fact of the matter is, the human body is intolerant to being struck with projectiles hitting it while flying around a 1,000 feet a second regardless of their size.

 

[duns]

And from everything that I have seen, heard, and read, the .40 is better at bringing down the bad guys.

There's a lot of literature to that effect and that may be why so many police forces bought the .40. This can be called proof by assertion or argumentum ad nauseam. If there is any solid evidence for the superiority of one of the three major calibers, I should like to see it (I am already familiar with the work of Marshall and Sanow, and Fackler).

 

[easyg]

The fact of the matter is, the human body is intolerant to being struck with projectiles hitting it while flying around a 1,000 feet a second regardless of their size.

You might be surprised at what the human body will tolerate.

From what I have seen and read the 9x18 Makarov is also real good at bringing down bad guns too and has been doing it much longer as well.

I don't know how effective the 9x18 Mak is when it comes to quickly stopping bad guys....it certainly seems weaker than the 9mm on paper, and even the Russians have abandoned it.
In fact, I don't think that any military still uses it.

 

[easyg]

There's a lot of literature to that effect and that may be why so many police forces bought the .40. This can be called proof by assertion or argumentum ad nauseam. If there is any solid evidence for the superiority of one of the three major calibers, I should like to see it (I am already familiar with the work of Marshall and Sanow, and Fackler).

Certainly no "hard evidence", but for what it's worth, it seems that very few police agencies are going back to the 9mm.
Seems that more and more are going to the .40S&W, the .357Sig, and even the .45GAP.

 

[lilidiot]

You might be surprised at what the human body will tolerate.


I don't know how effective the 9x18 Mak is when it comes to quickly stopping bad guys....it certainly seems weaker than the 9mm on paper, and even the Russians have abandoned it.
In fact, I don't think that any military still uses it.

You might want to look in there sub machine guns, there it is and still in use for it's remarkable feeding ability and still in full production in Russia as well. You can even buy it here and at only $12.00 bucks a box of 50. What about that!

I thought you said I would be amazed at what the human body can tolerate too.

Just saying you know.

 

[NMGonzo]

So you'd be down with being shot with a handloaded service caliber?

 

[easyg]

The police department use their weapons for self defense only. The function of the military is to kill people.

Those lines get more blurry every day.
There are cops, DEA agents, Border Patrol, and such who have seen more "combat" than many military units.

When I was a soldier in the U.S. Army I definitely did more "police work" than "killing"....even in Desert Storm.

The 9x19 mm NATO is the world wide choice for this purpose.

Worldwide, I'm willing to bet that cops do more "real world" life or death shooting with handguns than the military does.

The rifle is the military's primary weapon.
Heck, the vast majority of military personnel will never even fire a handgun, not even once, in their entire military service.

When it comes to handgun selection, the military is NOT necessarily the best guide to follow.



Easy

 

[NG VI]

Gonzo, words are fun

 

[Steve H]

this may go on for a few pages.....................

 

[Full Metal Jacket]