405 gr @ 2000 fps

[Panzerschwein]

I always thought lever gun with long magazine would make fine a HD gun. For .45-70 that would be "Cowboy" style load at 1200fps to 1300fps. Heck, you could even pack that into places like California w/o upsetting the locals. That is due in large measure to Western movies. The same can not be said of civilian versions of AKMs or M16s.

+1. And don't forget the bolt actions as well. legal almost anywhere, a sporterized (or stock) Mauser with some stripper clips at hand wouldn't get a second look in any state yet can be a formidable fighting rifle if pressed, and not bad for hunting neither!

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I agree it might make a respectable country boy fighting rifle ... outside, but clearing the house I think that 26" barrel might be a hindrance and this country boy would grab his 6920 or 870 first.

Funny, when I told a friend about the buffalo bore rounds I bought he asked what is it I am hunting. I don't hunt so I answered "Buicks".

 

[H&Hhunter]

Serious business all copper monolithic 405 Gr solids @ 2050 for the .45-70. If I was ever going to use a .45-70 in Africa for. thick skinned DG this is the bullet I would use.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...405-grain-punch-flat-nose-lead-free-box-of-20

 

[eastbank]

my siamese 98 in .45-70, handles the same loads as a ruger #1. as it fits me better the recoil doesn,t seem as bad with max loads.

 

[Torian]

So, I have not hunted since about 1979 but I love shooting a lever gun, My largest bore is a Marlin 1895cb in 45-70. I have rounds on hand for 405gr @ 1200 fps and 325gr at 1800. I just ordered a box of 405gr Buffalo Bore at 2000 fps. This is going to leave a mark isn't it?

I would recommend you ask your shoulder this question, and when it fails to respond and starts quivering uncontrollably, you might want to reconsider degree of exciting ordering these BB rounds

 

[bobnob]

I shoot the 400/405g bullets around 1750fps from my 18" GBL. From memory I'm using about 46g of H4198.

It's a hard hitting load, which still delivers a modicum of recoil. Much more pleasant than those very hot loads however. And you don't lose too much in terms of maximum point blank range.

They work great on pigs!

 

[greenmtnguy]

the only loads I push at or above 2000 fps in my 1895 are the 300 grn Hornady bullets for deer hunting. At 2050-2100 FPS, they are OK to shoot a few dozen of without getting a flinch, but they definitely do shove your shoulder back. These will not stay inside a whitetail and give me a decent PBR. My 405 copper plated and all-lead loads generally stay under 1800 FPS, and I don't have the desire to push them faster. They will penetrate anything I am likely to shoot. Above a certain recoil velocity, there can be the tendency for the recoil impulse against the hand to unlatch the lever on the high end loads.

 

[bobnob]

Im with you greenmtnguy, I shoot a lot of the 300g HPs around 2150fps. I get MPBR out to about 200y for pigs, and it drops 'em.

 

[BigBore44]

Serious business all copper monolithic 405 Gr solids @ 2050 for the .45-70. If I was ever going to use a .45-70 in Africa for. thick skinned DG this is the bullet I would use.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...405-grain-punch-flat-nose-lead-free-box-of-20

I know Africa has minimum standards for rifles. And it's my understanding the 45-70 doesn't fall into those standards. Do those "Punch" rounds meet the minimums?

 

[H&Hhunter]

A Marlin lever gun in .45/70 might well be one of the finest spot and stalk and jump shooting hog guns ever built. My CB in 45/70 wears a set of AO (now XS) ghost rings and I shoot 405 soft point or hard cast @ about 1800 FPS. It knocks the wind out of hogs. I've got to tell you though I've seen some big boys soak up a surprising amount of lead if they aren't hit in the goods on the first shot. Big old boar hogs remind me of Cape buffalo when wounded in that they get tough to kill when adrenalized. They aren't dangerous like a buff but they share that same tenacity to life when amped up.

I'll also mention that from a comfort standpoint a full house .470 double gun is more pleasant to shoot than a hot loaded marlin lever gun. No kidding. I've also never had a hog walk away from a full house .470 round even with poor hits. The difference in knock down and killing power is extremely obvious on even the biggest old boars. It's the difference between getting smacked and steam rolled.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I know Africa has minimum standards for rifles. And it's my understanding the 45-70 doesn't fall into those standards. Do those "Punch" rounds meet the minimums?

In some countries they do, some they don't. I am NOT saying I would take a .45/70 over for a DG hunt on purpose but if it was in my hands the punch bullet would be the clear choice. I seriously doubt a hard cast lead bullet would give reliable penetration on a frontal brain shot on a bull elephant. Side brain or heart lung shot would not be a problem though.

 

[CraigC]

I would definitely want a monometal (copper/bronze/brass) solid for elephant or rhino. Cast bullets would be acceptable for anything else.

 

[DeanV]

I read this article http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html years ago on the 45-70 vs .458 and thought it was interesting. I have no personal experience with this, so just posting it since it seems to provide good info for this topic.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I read this article http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html years ago on the 45-70 vs .458 and thought it was interesting. I have no personal experience with this, so just posting it since it seems to provide good info for this topic.

I've read that and am good friends with the current owner of Garret Ammunition. If this data was to hold true on actual big game the simple solution would be to down load your various .458 caliber DG rifles to 1500 FPS. In many of Randy's tests you've got to really read the fine print. He is notorious for comparing apples and oranges in that he likes to compare soft points from other rounds to his solids. He likes to compare round nose solids to his flat nose solids. So make sure and carefully read and understand what you are looking at. It's not a true test unless you are comparing exact bullets, weight, shape and material. That I've never seen done with Randy's data.

I can tell you this the first Cape Buffalo I ever shot with a .458 Lott was with a 500 gr Woodleigh Weldcore soft point and then followed him up with several traditional Woodleigh steel jacket lead core round nose solids. Velocity on these were just at 2300 FPS. Two of those were when he was running away at over 100 yards. One round took him in the meat of the hind quarter the other busted his hip before completely penetrating the gut and vitals. Both rounds were found under the skin of the neck. These rounds traveled length wise through a full grown Cape Buffalo bull weighing close to 2,000 lbs. I'm not sure how much more penetration you need? That is over 10 feet of live Cape buffalo.

I've spoken to several PH's who've recovered 500 Gr .458 projectiles in the skin of the hind quarters after brain shooting an elephant head on. One was from a .450 Dakota the other a Lott. If you need more than full lengthwise penetration on an elephant after the bullet has traveled through the skull and brain you've got some big problems!

I can't find it right now but there was a test conducted with a .45-70 and several dead elephants using hard cast lead bullets. They had a high failure rate on frontal brain shots on elephant.

That being said I am not disparaging the penetration of the .45-70 on heavy game with the right bullet/ load combination. It is truely impressive. But it is not as impressive as a true heavy firing proper bullets of high SD on actual thick skinned DG.

That has been my field experience for what it's worth.

 

[Gordon]

Above post was one of better ones I've read in 30 years

 

[Sarge7402]

Last time I qualified over the police course with my 870 we used Sabot 12 gauge slugs that were whisling out of the tube at right at 2000 FPS.

Pull the stock in tight to your shoulder and roll with the recoil and you'll save your self a terrible beating. A good rubber butt plate also goes a long way

 

[MaxP]

In some countries they do, some they don't. I am NOT saying I would take a .45/70 over for a DG hunt on purpose but if it was in my hands the punch bullet would be the clear choice. I seriously doubt a hard cast lead bullet would give reliable penetration on a frontal brain shot on a bull elephant. Side brain or heart lung shot would not be a problem though.

I've used hardcast bullets on water buffalo and have experienced mixed results. Anything that will degrade the nose shape will hurt penetration. Punch bullets on the other hand.....

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've used hardcast bullets on water buffalo and have experienced mixed results. Anything that will degrade the nose shape will hurt penetration. Punch bullets on the other hand.....

That has been my experience with hard cast bullets as well. I've also had them split and break in half. Hard cast bullets are wonderful but I don't trust them on thick skinned dangerous game such as Cape buffalo or elephant.

Punch bullets are a solid copper monolithic, agreed they are awesome and I'd trust them.

 

[MaxP]

Punch bullets are a solid copper monolithic, agreed they are awesome and I'd trust them.

The Punch bullet actually has a lead core (see the photo below -- we recovered this from a dead water buffalo last year). I prefer them to pure mono metal solids as they have a little more weight. They're great bullets!

We took this 1,600-lb water buffalo with hardcast and Punch bullets, but we shot a number of different load/bullet combinations through it's carcass afterwards. This one took issue with me coming after him in the brush, but before things got really ugly, I put a couple of Punch bullets into him.

 

[horsey300]

The Punch bullet actually has a lead core.........I prefer them to pure mono metal solids as they have a little more weight.

How so? I shoot monolithic and jacketed bullets, and whether it's a heavy large bore or a speedy overbored small bore 180 gr lead = 180 gr copper, what changes is length. If the punch bullet is heavier, then it's because the monolith IS lighter, I.e. 350 gr vs 325... on a side note, nice picture and thanks for sharing, glad you didn't let him get the best of ya .

 

[H&Hhunter]

Max

I didn't realize the punch had a lead core. The lead core makes them a better choice for round like the .45-70 as it will be shorter and eat up less powder space.

Where are you hunting water buffalo?

 

[CraigC]

IMHO, the big bovids reveal the shortcomings of cast lead but they still work well. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on Cape buffalo but would want something tougher for anything bigger. These .44cal 355's were recovered from an 1800lb bull. Even the bullet that sheared off one side still weighs 330gr and penetrated to the off side.

How so? I shoot monolithic and jacketed bullets, and whether it's a heavy large bore or a speedy overbored small bore 180 gr lead = 180 gr copper, what changes is length. If the punch bullet is heavier, then it's because the monolith IS lighter, I.e. 350 gr vs 325... on a side note, nice picture and thanks for sharing, glad you didn't let him get the best of ya .

Lead is heavier than brass/bronze/copper. With these heavyweight bullets, they are typically running at the limit for length, whether the limitation is the cylinder length of a revolver, or the action length of a levergun, along with the effect on case capacity. So if you produce a bullet similarly sized, it's going to be a good bit lighter. To equal the weight of a cast lead bullet, it will have to be overly long and you don't always have the room or twist rate for that to work. What we really need is a Punch bullet with a larger meplat that more closely replicates the shape of the WFN or WLN, rather than the LFN. With the hope that the increased toughness of the material makes up for the loss in mass.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I know a guy who has taken several big Cape Buffalo bulls with a .45-70 and a .50 Ak. He used hard cast bullets and had no issues at all. They performed wonderfully. My worry would be on a charge. I want a bullet that has almost zero chance of deformation or shearing in that situation.

As Max mentioned above he had mixed results with hard cast lead bullets. I've seen a 330 gr hard cast out of a .44 mag carbine split in half on a body shot on a hog. I am not interested in using them on a critter that can kill me back. I am kind of funny like that.