$40k+ for a rifle...?

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brnmuenchow

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Taking a look at some High Quality rifles knowing full well that "Holland & Holland" being at the forefront of firearm quality and history came across a .270 Win. "Bolt Action" Magazine Rifle with a 24" barrel Walnut stock no real special engraving other than the typical "Deluxe walnut w/ cheekpiece" you see on every hunting rifle. I begin to think to myself seeing this rifle in the Holland & Holland New York Gun Room Reference Number: HNSR 7066
Price: $ 48,000.00: Is it really that much better than say a Winchester Model 70 or Remington Model 700 in fine trim for say $1,400. Don't get me wrong I love the .270 Winchester but it's not a "NE" African hunting rifle so is it really worth that much. I understand the in's and out's of collecting it's only worth as much as someone is willing to pay.... but really? I am just thinking allowed so feel free to chime in, especially those who have had the honor or oportunity to shoot a Holland & Holland. :eek:
 
$40,000 would buy me every firearm and all the reloading equipment I could ever want. I don't see how anyone could spend that much on one piece.

That being said, it's other people's money. If an individual wants to spend that kind of money on a rifle, that's just fine with me.
 
Holland & Holland rifles and shotguns are all completely handmade.

I understand the handmade aspect, but still $40k+ for a .270 Win. is still pretty out there especially since it's not a "NE" double rifle which I may add go for over $100K.
 
I understand the handmade aspect, but still $40k+ for a .270 Win. is still pretty out there especially since it's not a "NE" double rifle which I may add go for over $100K.

Well their 12ga sxs shotguns can go for well over $125k and people buy those in matched pairs, so there ARE people that spend the money.
 
Well their 12ga sxs shotguns can go for well over $125k and people buy those in matched pairs, so there ARE people that spend the money.

I wish I was one of those people. I know you are not supposed to be jealous of other people, but I wonder what it would be like to just wake up one morning and go buy a matching set of anything for over $100k. Then buy a Ferrari for kicks, hey... I am allowed to dream.:D

How many of you out there have actually had the chance to shoot or own one of these H&H firearms or even known someone that had one, I bet it's a very rare thing to see.
 
Here is my take on it:

Let's say I am really rich. I can easily afford this rifle and I have all the time and money in the world to shoot it and go on hunts and get a ton of use out of it. I would still have a hard time buying it. Why? I cannot give it the level of appreciation it deserves. This gun needs an owner that truly understands the craftsmanship and effort that went into making it. It is an object of art as much as a firearm, and I am not an art aficionado.

Now if it was Hemingway's rifle or Bill Cody's rifle or Wyatt Earp's pistol I would drop that kind of money in a heart beat. That is because I am a historian and those rifles are objects that I can fully appreciate.
 
You are paying for Art. Many production rifles costing $500 or less will shoot as well. I have no issue with someone spending that much if it is what they want.
 
They sell these little underpowered and slow tractors here for like $40,000. I think they are called Harley something or others
 
Actually most H&H firearms are not that accurate. They were designed to fire a big load at a time when not many guns would fire that big of a load. Now they are mostly collector's items. And yes I realize a .270 isn't going to kill a cape buffalo but it's not much different than buying a Colt Navy. You are buying the name and the history. I like old guns. My uncle promised to leave me an 1815 Pennsylvania rifle in his will. A rifle like that would cost a fortune. It's not a replica. It's the real thing. It's nice to have a rich uncle. :) But I won't be putting out a bunch of money for a collector's item unless it's actual art or something I know will be a great investment.

I have seen other $40,000 rifles though. I saw a full auto .308 that sold for $40,000. I saw a full auto AR sell for $35,000. I got to shoot the AR but not the .308 and I don't even remember what brand it was. It was something unusual. But the guy that had them was a dealer for that class of firearms which meant he could have what he wanted as long as it was for sale. To me a weapon like that is more valuable that a collector's item but I understand why people pay big bucks for collectables. Heck I have some stuff that may be worth something when my grandkids get old. I actually have some stuff that belonged to my ancestors that is worth a lot of money too. I do know why people pay for big name stuff. But I'm a more practical person. I might spend $20 on a collectable item but not $20,000.
 
Now if it was Hemingway's rifle or Bill Cody's rifle or Wyatt Earp's pistol I would drop that kind of money in a heart beat. That is because I am a historian and those rifles are objects that I can fully appreciate.

I like this, and agree. I have always been a history buff, so spending that kind of money for me would be towards a real historical piece say like one of Pat Garrett, William H. Bonney's, or Gen. George Pattons SAA, etc. etc. I could see spending that kind of money on a "NE" double rifle from H&H if I had the money or that .270 Winchester I first mentioned if it had belonged to Harry Selby. I have a Winchester Model 70 "Super Grade" I have owned for many years and love the finish and quality of that rifle very much even though there is nothing special about it. I can appreciate a handmade rifle, however I guess just not ever being born into or acquiring that type of wealth has made it very hard for me to imagine handing over that kind of cash. (My Mustang was $30k and that was a hard enough bill to pay every month, but well worth it in the end. I could have bought a Yugo!) As I sit here I could see myself getting a dream firearm collection and reloading setup for that kind of money vs. just getting one rifle. Anyway, I just figured it was an interesting topic and after I saw the rifle began to wonder.... just what if I could, would or could I pull the trigger. :)
 
Is it really that much better than say a Winchester Model 70 or Remington Model 700 in fine trim for say $1,400. Don't get me wrong I love the .270 Winchester but it's not a "NE" African hunting rifle so is it really worth that much.
Ask your wife if her ring is really any better with a real diamon in it than it would be with a cubic zirconia in its place.

If you make 40k a year the gun is not for you. If you spend that amount on a trip overseas in your jet over the weekend, you wouldn't think twice about having one.
 
makes me wonder how much my dads Holland and Holland rifle is worth. I believe it was passed down from his grandfather to his father to him. It will be mine some day, and you can bet its one rifle that will never be sold as long as I am around.
 
How many of you out there have actually had the chance to shoot or own one of these H&H firearms or even known someone that had one, I bet it's a very rare thing to see.

I know a guy who owns and shoots several H&H double rifles. I've held them in my sweaty mitts and they are lovely, trim, gorgeous, and well executed little rifles. One is a .375 Flanged Magnum the other is a .500/.465 NE. The .375 he told me, is worth something north of 130K the .500/465 about 80K. He also owns and shoots John "Pondoro" Taylor's old .450 #2 NE. In fact he shot several tuskers in a Botswana with it last year, it is worth something North of 250K and he has no problem checking it into the belly of an airliner and dragging it around the bush shooting stuff with it. If I owned that rifle I'd be too paranoid, it would likely never leave the safe.

To this guy the money isn't a factor. He's got more money than he could spend in one lifetime and he enjoys his high dollar toys. I enjoy the fact that he is willing to share his rifles with anybody who is interested in them and that he uses them for their intended purpose, to hunt and shoot.

With that in mind not all H&H rifles are worth tens of thousands of dollars either. I was in Zimabawe several years ago and one of the apprentice PH's there had his fathers old .375H&H built by H&H in around 1920. The rifle had earned it's living in Africa since then and continues to do so today. There are working grade H&H bolt rifles that can be had for under 10K if you look hard enough.

All of the English gun makers built working grade rifles for the average working hunter in the day. These rifles were plain with little or no embellishment in terms of fancy wood, engraving or other fancy add on items, but they all had one thing in common that isn't common at all today. Attention to detail and meticulous hand made craftsmanship, there are not two of these English rifles from the "period" that are exactly identical. They are all hand fit and hand filed so every one of them is unique in some way. They were NOT production line rifles. So even the "common" working grade rifles were not common at all by today's standards. And of course you could also order a one off "Bespoken" rifle from these makers. Those rifles went to the elite of society, business tycoons and royalty and the filthy rich in general. And that is where makers such as Holland & Holland, Purdey, J. Rigby and Co. and such made their names famous and that is why they charge so much for a new rifle today. You are paying for a name. Just like a Rolls Royce. It won't do anything that a Ford won't do in terms of driving, but that's not why the well healed buy them. They buy them for the status of owning one. A guy who can afford to own and hunt with an H&H rifle is making a statement, he is saying to the world that nothing but the best will do, it's all about the status.

This an example of what I am talking about. I've seen H&H bolt rifles in the 7K range from time to time. I wasn't able to find one right off the bat but here is a working grade H&H double and while still pricey it is an example of a "low" priced H&H double rifle. About a 1/4 of the cost of a high grade fancy H&h double.

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30&ctl=GunsDetails&mid=409&StyleID=3&GunID=1858
 
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Thanks for the comments and links I will be sure to check those out.

Ask your wife if her ring is really any better with a real diamon in it than it would be with a cubic zirconia in its place.

I actually have never been married, spent too much time working and focusing my attention on guns, cars, and guitars. I do appreciate the finer things in life, but do not dwell on not being able to afford them. I make do with what the good Lord has blessed me with (Minus the wife and children), but when I see something like that I begin to wonder what it must be like to own or have access to a $40+k rifle. Just to think for that I could own 30 Winchesters in all different calibers and fit them with some awesome scopes.:D

Thanks for all the replies, it's good to get other peoples perspectives.
 
I wish I was one of those people. I know you are not supposed to be jealous of other people, but I wonder what it would be like to just wake up one morning and go buy a matching set of anything for over $100k. Then buy a Ferrari for kicks, hey... I am allowed to dream.

I freely admit to being bitter about all the people out there who have a lot more money than me, especially those who don't have to actually WORK for it. But that being said, even if i won the Powerball Lottery this week, i couldn't bring myself to buy an H&H, though i WOULD probably buy a half-dozen much cheaper guns though. And a modest house on a property big enough to have my own 1k yard range.

Wouldn't buy a Ferrari though. Driving a Ferrari means fixing a Ferrari, and since i'm a mechanic by trade and working on my own cars would remain a pastime for me, Italian and German cars are out. :D
 
I don't appreciate art. I don't appreciate it at inexpensive levels and I certainly don't appreciate it at expensive levels. I have no use for it. This rifle is being sold at it's price point based on it's artistic value. It's not being sold on it's value as a tool. You can get a completely custom built tool for $5k that will walk circles performance wise around that old H&H. To me, since I'm no art fan, I'd rather spend the money on performance than image.

That said, while I don't appreciate art and it's value, I can appreciate someone else being willing to spend their money on the artistic or historic value of an item as a collector. It's not my interest but certainly others have the bug and you can't say much bad about an old H&H.
 
I know that many purchase such things for the sake of owning them, for the sake of boosting their ego or image. Not all buy them for such reasons. Some folks enjoy the finer things in life. Some appreciate fine hand work, both the skill it takes to create such pieces and the piece itself. Some like old things and old ways. Some like walnut and blued steel. Some find glory in all the fine details. Some simply want something built just for them, to meet their desires and to stir their soul. I am, of course, describing myself. You don't have to be able to afford a $150,000 shotgun to be able to appreciate it. You don't have to be well-heeled enough to have an Aston-Martin in the driveway to be able to appreciate one. Some folks can't look past the price tag. Some folks look down their nose at such things, in a weird twist of snobbery and I never understood that. Personally, I love this stuff and while my means have been modest up to the last couple years, I have always tried to enjoy those fine things that I could. The difference is that I have always been willing to sacrifice other things that were less important to obtain the things that were more important. I do without less guns that would temporarily scratch the itch so that I may obtain finer guns that may be enjoyed long term. Which is why I have four custom Ruger revolvers and four USFA's, rather than a truckload of factory guns. It's not about flaunting your success or showing off to the neighbors, it's about enriching your life. In the end, we must all do what pleases us for the short time we are here.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that as my income rises, my tastes evolve. It changes your perspective when what once seemed impossible becomes possible. If you had told me five years ago that I would be doing the things I'm doing today, buying the things I'm buying and dressing the way I do, I'd say you were nuts. So absolutely, if I had the means, I'd have a slew of hand-built London masterpieces and I'd hunt the world with them. Until then, I'll be happy with a plains game hunt with my Winchester. ;)
 
Wouldn't buy a Ferrari though. Driving a Ferrari means fixing a Ferrari, and since i'm a mechanic by trade and working on my own cars would remain a pastime for me, Italian and German cars are out.

True, you even look at a Ferrari / Lambo. engine the wrong way and the warranty flies right out the window! :)

I am perfectly happy with my American V-8.
 
I'm not sure it's a case of boosting their egos. I know we re'glar folks seem to need to feel that they have this need to fill a big ego just so we don't feel bad about not being equally filthy rich but I'm pretty sure that you'll find that most of them are just regular folks with funny ideas of what constitutes "subsistance living".

It comes down to the simple fact that we ALL like toys. Those that are in that level of society that have that amount of money simply found out that they can buy the fancy stuff that is a little "shinier" than what the rest of us can afford.

You want to see sick people? Those would be the ones that buy art, cars, guns or whatever other historical and finely crafted stuff is out there and then squirrel it away in private viewing rooms where no one else in the world can enjoy it. In a lot of cases the items fall off the world's radar and no one even knows if it is still in existance or not. Now THAT is a sickness of ego or some other condition.
 
The best Ferrari has the engine in the front. I'd still rather have an Aston-Martin. ;)


...and then squirrel it away in private viewing rooms....
This squirrel likes to play with his nuts too much for that. :p
 
How many of you out there have actually had the chance to shoot or own one of these H&H firearms or even known someone that had one, I bet it's a very rare thing to see.

An elder gent I knew when I lived out West had spent post WWII in Europe as part of the Marshall plan and then at Oxford - he had guns made by every little custom maker in Austria, Germany, and England - including H&H. He would shoot that 100K gun with his reloads which never followed any recipe - if there wasn't enough shot, he filled the hull with toilet paper - nothing like seeing burning confetti coming out of the barrel of the H&H

BTW, Purdey is more expensive, but if you want the creme de la creme of shotguns, rifles, and multi-barrel guns, look at Peter Hofer or Philip Ollendorf. Hofer has certain models that go for upwards of 600K
 
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