40s&w +p +p+ ammo

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I received a reply to the email I sent to Georgia Arms, here is the
email, sorry for the cut and paste look.


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If I may let me give you to facts aout out +P and +P+ ammo. The SAAMI is a
group of manufactures of ammuntion and firearms who pool their data to
insure that all ammunition specifications are similar enough so that my 3006
ammunition will safely fit and fire any anyone's 3006 rife ect. Membership
is voluntary not mandatory and many manufacturers do not belong. Are you
aware that much of the ammo from Europe, particualarly Norma, a noted
manufacturer of high quality ammunition is loaded to pressures above what
SAAMI specifices? How about NATO spec 9mm ammo? This ammo is loaded, to 38
000 psi, well above the 35000 psi set by SAAMI. Millions of these rounds
are fired every year in SAAMI spec weapons with no ill effects. The reason
I believe SAAMI has chosen not to extend the 40 S&W to +P or +P+ is due to
problems inccured in the early 90's when several manufacturers of quality
pistols simply converted their existing 9mm weapon to 40 S&W without
spending the time and money necessary to fully understand the
characteristics of this cartridge. These weapons has a large unsupported
area in the bottom of the chamber, and some had timing problems. When this
was combined with a 180 grain bullet, which was entirely too long for the 40
S&W case and a weak case design by one of the ammo manufacturers, a number
of case falures occured at normal pressures. Both the gun manufacturers,
and ammo manufactures have learned a lot about this cartridge in the last 8
to 10 years. The chambers are better than ever, timing problems has gone
away and brass manufacturers are making a stronger product than ever. Also,
new technologically advanced powders are available today which yield
diffeent and superior pressure curves to anything available in the early
90's.
We believe that with the components which we are using and with weapons
currently in use, our loads are safe to use. We have produced, tested, and
sold many thousand of the high performance round in the 7 years they have
been in production. To the best of my knowledge we have experienced no
failures in our +P or +P+ round 40 S & W ammo. The Speer Gold Dot bullet we
use in this ammo is simply the best expanding hollow point pistol bullet we
have ever tested. The faster you drive the bullet the better it performs as as
it absolutely will not come apart as most JHP's do. We wanted to offer a
round for self defense which would perhaps more quickly incapacitate an armed perpetrator and if possible save an innocent life. To this goal, I
believe we have been sucessful. The +P and +P+ designations are our way of
telling you, the consumer, that these rounds and above normal pressures, the
+P rounds average around 36000 psi and the +P+ about 37500 psi. 40 S & W
pistols are proofed at 47000 psi at the factory. Our intent is not to
mislead our customers but rather to be completely honest about our products.
Thank you for taking time to contact our company and inquire about our
products.

Thanks
Georgia Arms
 
Doesn't make their labeling of .40 S&W ammo "+P" or "+P+" any less dishonest. They also sell standard-performance 10mm ammo as "+P," which once again is dishonest as hell.

+P and +P+ are industry standards, and claiming that something that ignores industry standards should be labeled as if it complies with them is on the face of it fraudulent. Talk about double-speak!

And this is ignoring the fact that factory .40 S&W ammo has blown up several guns, making the whole idea of hot-rodding the cartridge beyond standard pressure limits, and marketing it with labels that falsely indicate it as in compliance with some industry standard, seem irresponsible as hell.

The chambers are better than ever

Unless you are talking about Glocks, probably the #1 .40 S&W gun out there...

:rolleyes:

When this was combined with a 180 grain bullet, which was entirely too long for the 40 S&W case

Which naturally explains why GA *sells* 180gr .40 S&W loads...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Bottom line regarding post: .40S&W +p does not exist. If a manufacturer is selling some, you have no way of knowing what pressures they've loaded it to, and nothing to keep them from changing the pressures around randomly. Sounds like crap to me.
 
Well, Sean, Mike, and Tech, if your thoughts ring true, then what about +p+ ammunition? According to that article, +p+ isn't recognized either... Guess all that 9mm ammo is dangerous and dishonest too...
 
I thought that the +P designated a 10% increase in pressure over the normal standard, and +P+ was 15% over.
 
Nope, no SAAMI standards for +P+. So Sean and Tech, Winchester and Federal (at a minimum) are "dishonest as hell."

Actually, GA explanation strikes as reasonable and honest--a whole lot better than you'd get from most ammunition manufacturers even if though chose to respond.

BTW, Sean, your statement, "They also sell standard-performance 10mm ammo as "+P," which once again is dishonest as hell," is nonsensical. While it's true the velocities don't look all that fast (if that is what you are using to measure "standard-performance 10mm ammo"), +P and +P+ do not necessarily have any direct correlation to velocity--instead, they refer pressure. I know Federal as well has sold some incredibly slow ammunition labeled +P+. You might want to refrain from statements like that unless you are indeed refer to chamber pressure.
 
Hrrmmmm.

GA generally has a pretty good rep, both for quality control and performance.

What they're saying about the Gold Dot is accurate: the jacket is seriously bonded to the lead, to such a degree that they resist "over-speed problems" (coming unglued when driven too fast, a common hollowpoint problem). So the *idea* of punching 'em out faster is a good one, so long as the results are safe!

What they're saying about powder types also rings true. Buffallo Bore is working on a project to create a hardcast 45LC hunting load that won't blow up an SAA or Italian (solid frame) SAA or Remington clone, or Taurus medium-frame DA 45LC. They plan on driving a 260grainer at 1,000fps from a 4" tube. The usual rules say you just can't do that.

So if they've done something funky to get a 40S&W to move faster, I fail to see any "dishonesty" in labeling it "+P". HOWEVER, they should be warning people about using it in early Glocks :eek: or weak guns in general. God knows there's precident for that - 45LC+P ammo gets labeled "Ruger, Thompson Center or Marlin leverguns ONLY (or the Colt Anaconda if you're in a gambling mood)!!!".

Or Buffallo Bore's new 44Spl heavy, which is clearly labeled "works great in anything BUT a Charter Bulldoggy!".

:)
 
There has been no significant change to the chamber support of the .40 Glock pistols since inception. Same with several other brands. GA is playing a game.


+P+ does have a definition for 9mm. Anything above +P pressures, without an upper limit. That's why relatively mild Police loads and crazy subgun loads all wear the same +P+ title.
 
There has been no significant change to the chamber support of the .40 Glock pistols since inception. Same with several other brands. GA is playing a game.

+P+ does have a definition for 9mm. Anything above +P pressures, without an upper limit. That's why relatively mild Police loads and crazy subgun loads all wear the same +P+ title.

Bingo.

+P+ can't mean anything if there is no established +P in the first place to be over.

As for velocity vs pressure... sure, if you screw up (or have a special case, e.g. Federal using oodles of pressure-increasing flash suppresants), you can get higher pressures and no corresponding velocity increase. So is Georgia Arms just too stupid to load 10mm ammo with something like AA#7 or #9? :rolleyes:
 
Glock Accuracy

Strange that this thread has come up as I was thinking about this issue yesterday as I returned from the second range visit with my new Glock 23. I have owned 6 or 7 G23s since Glock has come out with them and the older ones were not very accurate. It was pretty much standard for me to slap a KKM or Bar Sto in shortly after the purchase of a G23. The last 2 third gens have been accurate at least out to 20 yards. The one I shot yesterday would roll a beer can every shot at that distance. Past 20 yards accuracy become more spotty. Unscientific testing I know but it does give me a pretty good feel for a pistols accuracy. I know my shooting skills have not improved that much and I suspect Glock has tightened the chamber specs on the 40cals.
 
All that being said..............

I've used Georgia Arms for a great deal of my shooting needs, especially my revolvers.

However, concerning the .40 cal +P+.........this ammo produced the only FTF's and FTE's my son's H&K .40 cal USP ever had. Believe me, we've shot THOUSANDS of rounds through this outstanding autoloader and I thought I'd never see a malfunction. I'd consider the .40 cal round to be sufficiently stout without pumping it up to +P+ pressures.

From personal experience, I'd caution against using these rounds mentioned.
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the .40 S&W already a relatively high pressure cartridge to begin with? If so, how hotter can one really load it while maintaining safety?
 
.40 operates in the same pressure range as 9mm. But the existance of overpressure 9mm loads should not imply that the same is acceptable in .40.

.40 is pushing things as is. Why carry a .40 if the reasonably hot standard loads are insufficient? The extra pressure and recoil only hasten the day something breaks on your carry piece.
 
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