.410 Saiga for future wife/children? Defensive role

[stiletto raggio]

So I am thinking very hard about picking up one (or three) .410 Saigas. I would only use one, that that would be converted to a traingle-folder AK look-alike. The other two would be for my future wife and maybe even one for my kids to learn on.

Why? Well, I asked myself that, too. Here is the deal: I know I can handle a 12 gauge, but whoever it is I end up marrying may not be able to, at least not reliably and under stress.

I have no interest in .410 slugs. A shotgun slug under 100 grains? Yeah, I will stick with a 7.62x39 and have higher capacity, more powe, greater accuracy and cheaper ammo.

Bridshot seems to be a bit more expensive than 12 gauge, but it at least serves a purpose for critter control.

I would have ruled out the .410 all together, but it turns out that the 3", 5 pellet 000 load is pretty damn serious. Consider that the 12 gauge 000 load holds only 8 or 10 pellets and they are doing roughly the same velocity, and you've got a winner considering how much less a .410 recoils.

I did the math and ballistically, each of those five 000 pellets is the equivalent of a very hot .32. A single 71 grain bullet at 12-1300 fps is nothing to scoff at, but five pellets hitting in a small area nearly simultaneously is at least as decisive as a very powerful handgun. 355 grains totaol weight at that velocity matches the momentum and KE of a .454 Casull. Add in multiple wound cavities and I don't see the room for argument. Again, this is the ONLY load I would consider for HD, but on the face of things, it seems pretty impressive.

Basically, the Surefire mags and 3" 000 load have me sold on it as a defensive gun for those of smaller stature. Am I missing anything?

 

[Sicari]

Since no one's weighed in on this, I'll offer my $.02.

Siaga shotguns are interesting and have a good reputation for reliability.
In my opinion, with proper ammo a good .410 is more than enough for most home defense applications.

Consider however, the limited availability of suitable cartridges and the need to conduct sufficient function testing of the semi-auto with said ammo.

As a practical matter, I believe you'd be better off with a pump in 20 Ga. or less preferably, .410.

 

[goon]

IIRC, S&B still sells Buck shot in 25 round boxes. Check out cheaper than dirt to be sure.
Personally, I think the 20 gauge would be a little better choice - it throws more lead with every trigger pull and practice ammo will also be cheaper.
I've also had bad results with patterning .410 Buck loads but that could have just been my gun. Do Saiga's have interchangeable chokes? If so, that could help.

 

[stiletto raggio]

I had heard less than wonderful things aobut the recoil of a 20 gauge out of a gauge-specific platform, but today I shot a 20 gauge 870. It was fine. Of course, this was with powderpuff 7/8 ounce loads, and I am sure the dynamics can change quickly when you get into buckshot and slugs. My attitude may change if I get some other kinds of 20, like a Benelli Legacy for upland birds. I really don't like the idea of adding another gauge to the array, but even reduced recoil 12 gauge loads are serious stuff.

I have also scouted ammo. Suprisingly, birdshot seems to be a little more expensive (as expected) than in 20 gauge, but buckshot is significantly cheaper than 20 gauge buck. We shall see.

Saigas do have interchangeable chokes, but they are optional and don't come with the stock gun. The only .410 I have patterned about a 4" spread at 10 meters with the 5 pellet OOO buck load.

 

[guntotinguy]

OK,I have a few Saiga's a 12,20 and a 410,all converted (yes 922r compliant) and even though I prefer the 12 gauge...the 410 is not without merit...took it out in the desert,placed up a couple of milk jugs filed with water and (using slugs) at appox. 30 yeards it would do some serious damage.


410 shells are getting high priced so mostly the S410 will be used for HD only...handles very well and has the AK converted consistancy.I really like this shotgun...

 

[Cosmoline]

Consider that the 12 gauge 000 load holds only 8 or 10 pellets and they are doing roughly the same velocity, and you've got a winner considering how much less a .410 recoils.

What was the barrel length and who did the measuring? The Saiga does not have a long barrel by any means, and you could be looking at seriously less velocity than a full size shotgun. At an already low speed of 1135 fps, that could make a real difference. Plus only five pellets isn't much. It might be enough, but why not use something with more killing power?

Plus if the goal is to eventually teach people to shoot, you will need a LOT of ammunition. With .410 esp exotic long loads, that's going to add up quick.

Finally, the idea of trying to buy a firearm for someone you haven't even met yet strikes me as misguided. There is no way to know what that person will tolerate recoil-wise, or what they will want to shoot. It's foolish enough to pick out a firearm for a KNOWN wife, let alone an UNKNOWN one! Each person needs to decide what works for them, PERIOD.

 

[357fan]

I'm a fan of the 410. I bring one hiking and camping every time out. I'm also a big fan of the AK platform, and of Saigas. That said, I just don't see the need for a Saiga 410, especially for somebody who you don't even know yet.

In the end, if you want it, get it. Don't make excuses about it, just get it. If you need to rationalize the purchase in order to feel good about it, then you don't really want it bad enough to spend the money on it.

 

[Rustynuts]

If I were teaching someone to shoot (esp women or kids), I would definitely go with the 410. I don't even like shooting my Saiga-12 after about 10 rounds, and I have a thick 1" pad on it! (may have to get a limbsaver!).

I did exactly what you are doing. Had/have a Saiga-12 and bought a 410 (in conversion process!) for more fun and training my son in a few years.

I would NOT go with a Saiga-20 as I've heard it kick almost as much as the 12. Never shot the 20 though, so not sure. The 410 will definitely be less scary for a small person and they can stay on target to empty those 10-rd mags!

 

[357wheelgunner]

If someone cannot handle a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500, with light birdshot in 12 gauge, they've probably got something in their head that is making them think that the recoil is worse than it is.

You can load a 12 gauge down with low recoil buckshot and slugs, and birdshot. Practice ammunition is a fraction of the cost when shooting 12 gauge, compared to .410 and 20.

My wife is 130 lbs and she has no trouble shooting a 12 gauge, because she only shoots it with birdshot for practice.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Yeah, I will stick with a 7.62x39 and have higher capacity, more powe, greater accuracy and cheaper ammo.

Why not stick with 7.62x39 then? Or maybe .223?

My wife is 130 lbs and she has no trouble shooting a 12 gauge, because she only shoots it with birdshot for practice.

Everybody's different, I hate the recoil of 12 gauge, and I'm over 6 feet tall.

 

[guntotinguy]

would NOT go with a Saiga-20 as I've heard it kick almost as much as the 12. Never shot the 20 though, so not sure.

I can tell you 'it depends' on the load but it oftimes DOES kick as hard as my S12, we purchased the S20 for a 2nd Saiga,and thought it would be lighter in recoil,but it depended on the loads we used.

 

[stiletto raggio]

It might be enough, but why not use something with more killing power?

Because "killing power" comes at a price in weapon weight, recoil, muzzle blast, or any/all of the above.

Plus if the goal is to eventually teach people to shoot, you will need a LOT of ammunition. With .410 esp exotic long loads, that's going to add up quick.
[?QUOTE]

Point taken, but .410 Buckshot costs only about 20% more than 12 gauge buckshot, and in this situation, recoil should be low enough for someone to practice with the actual defensive load.

Finally, the idea of trying to buy a firearm for someone you haven't even met yet strikes me as misguided. There is no way to know what that person will tolerate recoil-wise, or what they will want to shoot. It's foolish enough to pick out a firearm for a KNOWN wife, let alone an UNKNOWN one! Each person needs to decide what works for them, PERIOD.

I understand the sentiment here. I would be lying if I said that I didn't want one, but for me, it would not be a go-to gun. It would, however, be a gun that I would be comfortable letting a new shooter or a shooter of smaller stature or more limited physical capabilities learn to shoot and use as a defensive weapon, even if only while learning their own preferences well enough to pick something out on their own.

Keep in mind that these guns are imported and that all it takes is an executive order to stop any gun, family of guns, or guns from a specific country to be banned form further importation. Jan '09 is coming fast, so I figure that if it is imported and I want it, either for now or the future, it is wise to buy now. They sure aren't going to get cheaper.

Why not stick with 7.62x39 then? Or maybe .223?

I have plenty of rifles in both of those calibers. For defensive purposes in a home, though, I prefer either a shotgun or a pistol. For a less experienced shooter, I think a shotgun is a much better choice. If the zombies get bad and we have to clear out, we'll grab the rifles.

Also, I would like to point out that I am a firm believer in The Patriot mentality when it comes to firearms. I think defensive firearms should be configured so that all members of the family can use them if need be.

 

[Dave McCracken]

You may want to get Mossberg's little 410 pump in the interim. Less weight for a small new shooter, less cost, easier MOA.

 

[stiletto raggio]

Excellent point, Dave. I had frankly forgotten about it. I'll look up the specs and give it a go. I hope there are replacement stocks available, because I have a feeling LOP will be a bit long.

After shooting a few hand-thrown clay with a .410 this weekend, I don't think it is as impotent as people make it out to be.

 

[Dave McCracken]

My doubts concerning the 410 cluster around its use on game critters.

It's fine for clays, starling and squirrel control and starting off young shooters. While performance is limited, within those limits the little 410 can shine a bit.

Had I a 410, I'd reload for it with premium shot, a full length shot cup and maybe buffering. I might even get all tweak crazy and have the forcing cone done, a backbore and custom choke (Shoot, ream and polish, repeat until satisfied) work until I was sure all was optimized.

Jay Menafee of Polywad worked up some premium loads this way for the 410, saying no shotgun works well when it's fed junk.

IMO, he has a good point.

Also, I'm sure there's stocks around for the little Mossberg.

 

[machinisttx]

Clays are not live animals. Shot travels at roughly the same velocity from .410/20/12 loads---the differences are in effective range and payload.

IMO, the .410 is overpriced, lacks enough hull capacity, and is generally pretty impotent on game. It works well within 25 yards or so for birds or squirrels, but after that the pattern is just too thin.

Put a limbsaver recoil pad on a 20 gauge, and make sure the stock fits the shooter.

 

[jackdanson]

, but whoever it is I end up marrying may not be able to, at least not reliably and under stress

I doubt that, my wife is small and handles my saiga 12 gauge fine. Practice with lighter loads, when stressed a full load of buck won't be an issue. I also suggest AGAINST the saiga for HD, I've had too many FTE's and FTFs on 1st shots of mags that have been loaded for a while.

Not all women are big wimps. The first time I took my wife shooting I was going to keep her on the .22 and .223, but she quickly moved up to the .308 and 12 gauge. She called me a pansy because I kept telling her those were going to recoil hard. After shooting the 12 gauge her response was "is that all?"

 

[KevininPa]

I bought the .410 for my wife....

...She has fun with it. The recoil is way lower than the 7.62 x39. You may have to cut down the stock or change it. The factory stocks are set for John Wayne. I went with the Tapco T6 adjustable so we can both play. Don't let the bigger is better snobs get to ya. Those .410 buckshot rounds are nasty at close range.

 

[Leif Runenritzer]

I would suppose that a Saiga .410 would have less kick than a Saiga 12, but would anyone say the Saiga .410 kicks lightly enough for the likes of small-statured shooters? I'm asking because i've shot a light-weight .410 that recoiled worse than a 12ga. with both 3in. and 2½in. shells.

 

[Al Thompson]

Finally, the idea of trying to buy a firearm for someone you haven't even met yet str

I've done that.

FWIW, my NEF .410 hates the buckshot loads - throws the buckshot up and down - like 20 inch vertical pattern at 30 feet. Hope the Saiga does better!

 

[berettashotgun]

The Saiga 410 is a creampuff to shoot, at least mine is.
Ammo is terribly expensive as compared to 12-20 loads; as far as weight of the 'spensive components.
But, get one - they are very fun.
I've seen a few deer go down to a 410 slug back in the '70's.

 

[Rustynuts]

Yes, my Saiga 410 was a BB gun to shoot compared to the S-12! I was going to say that for serious use, slugs would be preferred! Anyone know if the Taurus Judge can be used with slugs or just light birdshot?

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think defensive firearms should be configured so that all members of the family can use them if need be.

That seems like a good idea to me.

If you're leaning toward the shotgun because it's easier to hit your target, you may wish to reconsider. Last time I checked, the .410 buckshot loads only had 3 pellets.
If that's not the reason, why would this be any more family-friendly than .223?

 

[mr.trooper]

My girlfriend has no problem with 12 guage field loads. She is a bit taller and built stronger than many women, but my 930 is cake for her. She shot field loads out of my 12 guage Mossberg 930 the FIRST time she ever fired a shotgun.

I AM a fan of the .410 bore: I use it for skeet when i want a challenge, and I also use it for small game and upland hunting; Iv got lots of real world experience carrying and shooting things with a .410 pump. YES, a 3" .410 Slug, or a load of 5 000 buck is going to put the HURTING on a home invader.

THAT said, i would get her a 20 gauge: The increase in recoil is well worth the increase in payload. YES recoil is noticeable, but its still quite low. 20 gauge is what most little kids hunt deer with around here.

 

[RyanM]

I'd stick with a 7.62x39mm one. Recoil is about the same, and a decent softpoint or JHP will perform pretty well. Better than 5 pellets of buckshot, I'd say. Oh, and ammo is way cheaper, so everyone can get a lot more practice in. Wolf Military Classic 124 gr JHP is an excellent performer, does a bit better than 123 gr Winchester JSP in gelatin testing.