429-421 Kieth

[Catpop]

Anybody casting/ shooting this boolit? I am getting ready to start reloading 44 mag and have read with great interest about this 1927/28 boolit by Elmer Kieth. I would like to buy about 25 to 50 to test. I realize there have been many changes to Kieths original design and I would like to get as close to the original as possible.
I have decided to only load only boolits I can make myself in the future and not waste my time on things that can disappear from the shelves overnight. I will invest my time developing these cartridges only in the future.
Thanks in advance, Catpop

 

[PapaG]

The true Keith bullet has several characteristics, some of which are three equal length driving bands (also, all three full caliber), a square bottom grease groove, and the "Keith" style semi-wadcutter profile. I have an old mould from the fifties that is true and a four cavity from later that h a s the round bottom lube groove. Can't see any difference in how either of them shoots. Have an original hollow point version also that although a pia to use, is a great bullet when cast relatively soft. Good luck. I think it is Stoll the best 44 bullet designed for the Russian, Special or the magnum.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

This company is supposed to have the molds closest to the original Keith design. NEI Hand Tools
Are they any good? I don't know.

 

[35 Whelen]

Without walking to the shop to check, I think I have five moulds that cast the 429421 or a variation thereof. Only one of them, an old single cavity Lyman, has the round-bottom lube groove.
I'd suggest you order a back-issue of Handloader #287; December 2013 as it has an entire article dedicated to this exact bullet. Excellent read.

I've fired I'd guess 1000 - 1200 of this bullet, maybe a little more out of various .44 Specials over the last 1 1/2 years. I've run them as slow as 750 fps and as fast as a little over 1200 fps (out of a Flat Top Blackhawk) and really I can't see a nickels worth of difference in any of the variations I cast, from an accuracy standpoint.

The RCBS 44-250KT design is probably my favorite for hunting because it's a little beefier up front. Cast of WW's mine usually weigh about 258 grs. I whacked two whitetails with it last year. This bullet will run a shade slower than other Keith type bullets because less of it is in the case due to the position of the crimp groove.

The NOE version is the one I shoot most when practicing simply because my NOE mould is a 4-cavity and enables me to cast more bullets faster. It drops bullets right at 260 gr. with the use of WW's. This mould is a really good buy and the quality is superb.

But this mould, produced by a European company called Mihec, is the cream of the crop. The moulds are machined from brass and for whatever reason cast the slickest, shiniest, and generally prettiest bullets I've ever cast, and the bullets are accurate to boot! It has the capability of casting the Keith bullet in either its original, solid form, with a small hollowpoint, a large hollowpoint or a 5-sided or pentagonal hollowpoint. I've not cast any solid or small HP bullets from this mould, but the penta HP bullets weigh 245 grs. while the "large" HP version weigh about 252 grs. I shot a small whitetail buck last December with the large HP version of this bullet.





The bad news is these moulds are produced in limited numbers under Group Buys over on the Cast Boolit forum. I don't know if a fella could PM the owner and see if he has any extra moulds or not.

Another mould maker is Accurate Moulds. I have one of his .44 moulds in a 165 gr. RNFP version and the quality is outstanding as is his customer service. He also makes a version of the RCBS 44-250KT/429421

PM me and we'll see about getting you some bullets, although I don't think 50 will even get you started testing!

35W

 

[blarby]

Dang, those castings are shiney !

That penta is really nice !

I've been eyeing his 45 HP mould for some time, the one he uses for the logo.

Was just about to get it when 458 dropped into my lap, and instead a new Saeco ( thats shooter for ferrari price tag on a mass market product, btw ) is on its way.

 

[Catshooter]

Catpop,

I cast for almost everything I shoot and have done so since about 1970.

I read everything I could get my hands on in those days so I'd know how to cast.

It didn't work. It wasn't until I joined the CastBoolits forum and started reading there that I finally resolved issues that had troubled me for most of 40 years.

Elmer Keith was a great guy and he tried his best to give us the right dope. But he fell down in a few areas.

Casting is more technical that just reloading. But the cost savings and the independence from factories it gives me is well worth it. Or so I think.

I've done a lot of research on his 429421 trying to find out what his first design was really like. You can find some of the details, but I've never seen anywhere that can answer all of his design criteria. He first designed it in about 1928 and Lyman quickly started changing his design, so who knows? Lyman didn't start dating their moulds until the last ten or so years so it can get pretty tough to tell when a particular mould was made. I mean we can narrow it down some, that's true, but to really pin it down can't be done. At least I couldn't.

Welcome to the madness that is casting. May it serve you well.


Cat

 

[35 Whelen]

Thanks blarby! Here's a .45 mould I think no .45 revolver owner should be without. (Mine's on order!!) It's be practically identical to the brass mould pictured above.

Catpop,

I've done a lot of research on his 429421 trying to find out what his first design was really like. You can find some of the details, but I've never seen anywhere that can answer all of his design criteria. He first designed it in about 1928 and Lyman quickly started changing his design, so who knows? Lyman didn't start dating their moulds until the last ten or so years so it can get pretty tough to tell when a particular mould was made. I mean we can narrow it down some, that's true, but to really pin it down can't be done. At least I couldn't.

Welcome to the madness that is casting. May it serve you well.


Cat

Order the Handloader back-issue I mentioned above. The article on the 428421 is extremely informative and the author even owns the second 429421 mould by Lyman/Ideal. (The first was shipped to and owned by Keith himself.)

35W

 

[ericbc7]

I love the 358156 hollow point gas check mold. I haven't casted it for years but it is the best cast bull it I've ever used in my security six ever

 

[GooseGestapo]

I've got both the Lyman version from the late '70's, and a more recent RCBS version.
Both cast a similar bullet and both shoot well.

Don't fret too much over the "design", as long as it has generous, square bottom lube groove and forward driving band.

The ones that shoot poorly are the ones with shallow, narrow lube grooves that don't hold adequate lube, which also typically have narrow forward "driving" bands on the bullet. These, combined with a .429" sizing will usually shoot poorly with high powered loads.
These were in my opinion were produced to make a bullet that dropped easily from the mold and intended to be shot in some of the short-cylinder firearms that were produced in the late '60's and early 70's.

I loaded for a couple of guns that required me pulling the bullets from the .44spl brass and reseating the bullets to the edge of the foward driving band so the bullets not extend out of the front of the chambers....
The "true" Keith bullets seated and crimped to the crimp groove will often protrude out of the chamber of other than S&W .44mag cylinders....
Size your bullets at least .430".
My S&W 329PD "requires" bullets of at least .430" to shoot decently with cast bullets...

A "Hot" load of #2400 and a too-small bullet of/with inadequate lube will produce a mess! Don't ask how I know !!!
Took a week of brushing and cleaning to get all the lead out....(my first Mod-29 with some commercial "swagged" bullets and 22.0gr of #2400....). But, hey, that's what the factory lead bullet loads had in the '70's.....

 

[DM~]

I have cast many thousands of the 429421's and HP version, but I much prefer the RCBS 44-250KT bullet over the 429421 bullet.

The RCBS bullet is VERY accurate, I took first place using it in many silhouette matches, and even used it when I came in second place in the Alaska state championships, in production gun class.

As for a hunting bullet, biggest animal I've taken with it is, is moose... I did shoot a nice 8 point whitetail using that bullet a few years ago...

Lastly, when I had my ammo mfg. license, that's the bullet I loaded for sale, on top of 23 grains of H-110, CCI 350 primer. Same load I still use today in my personal 44 mags...

DM

 

[Don McDowell]

Don't worry about the little stuff that some make huge post counts grousing about.
Get either the Lyman 429421 mould or the RCBS 44KT, and cast away. Both bullets do just fine in the 44 special and magnum.

 

[blarby]

I just messaged Miha, and he does indeed have some of those molds left !!!!

 

[Buck13]

If you want to buy some to test, Western Bullet sells 429421s. Sized to whatever diameter you want, as long as it's 0.430, IIRC.

Not sure of the alloy, but the first 300 I purchased killed paper reasonably well. I'll be buying more.

 

[blarby]

Ok, thanks again for the tip on a great mould.

The first attempt was too cold, and I couldn't get them off the pins.

Second attempt after the great advice of 35 Whelen was WAY too hot, but he put me on the right path.


This mould is impressive, and these are the first few usable bullets from it.

This weekend, with finally the right temperature ( damn darkness ! ), it will sing.

All moulds have quirks.... this one has a personality all its own ! But I can't wait to get those shiney ones out !

You can see its potential in just the tip of the one pentapoint.

 

[41 Mag]

Blarby,

I usually get the best results preheating the mold a bit on my hotplate set to just b=past the medium setting. I set the PID in my pot to 725 to start with and rarely but sometimes have to ease it up to 745 depending on the pins used. Those Penta pins to like it a certain temp for sure. Also you might give them a slight polish as well sometimes the edges are a bit sharp or have a touch of roughness that once polished up they will drop off like nobodies business.

Oh and once you got the temps figured out, well your ruined from there. Might as well start thinking about what else you need.

 

[blarby]

Might as well start thinking about what else you need.

This year ? Not much.

I only slid "another half car payment bullet maker" under the radar on the guise of a birthday present. To myself.

From my wife.

Ya, its like that. Love that woman