MBC .309 bullets in a Marlin 336

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What is the COAL with this bullet loaded? My Win 94 seems to have a shorter throat than the Marlins.
 
Kelbro, your observations on the Win 94 throat seems be a common finding judging by what I've seen here and other forum. I have no experience with model 94s myself so I won't comment on specific load lengths. Brad's casting equipment uses Magma Engineering moulds, I would begin my search for data with that and move from there.
 
...and now I find myself unable to find any load data for this bullet via MBC or Magma Engineering searches. OAL is easy enough to base off the crimp groove but powder charge data I don't want to experiment with. Brad, can you shed any light here?
 
I spend quite a bit of time on castboolits but the clincher there is they tend to only have info for mould-produced boolits, not commercially cast bullets. After much googling and cross-referencing, I'm gonna start at 17.5gr of H4895 and top out at 21.5gr. If the weather holds out, I'll put these down range tomorrow =D

~ Jech
 
Range report! Put 40 rounds into the berm this evening, 30 with H4895, 10 with Unique. The good news is I can't find any trace of leading in the barrel. The bad news is that at 50 yards, none of the H4895 loads were even minute-of-deer.

5x rounds @ 18gr/H4895, 5x @ 19gr, 5x @ 20gr and 15x @ 21.5gr
The 3 lesser charges all left a TON of unburned powder and ash in the barrel...hotter the charge, the cleaner it was (clean being a VERY relative term here). The action and muzzle both continued to smoke significantly for 5-8 seconds after each shot as the residual powder smoldered. Point of impact was a solid 12-18 inches lower than my jacketed load of 34gr/H4895 behind a 150gr Hornady Interlock soft-point.

I get the impression that even though I'm shooting lead, I started working up WAY too low. I also don't know much about 30-30 appropriate powders yet or if this is even one that is recommended for cast. As for the Unique, the last 10 of the 40 were loaded with 10gr and grouped as well as I can expect when I'm so new to loading for a bottlenecked cartridge: 2" at dusk with a scope that hasn't been sighted in for that load.

What should I try next? Hotter charges of the powders I have or could the .311" bullet theoretically be the cause of the gross inaccuracy? Before I get spammed with DID YOU SLUG YOUR BORE YET no, I haven't had a chance to cast a slug for this rifle yet. Hopefully this weekend I can hammer that one out...
 
So 10 rounds loaded with 10 grains of unique squared within 2" of a 150 gr interlock factory round ?

I'd stop the research there, if the muzzle velocity wasn't too shabby :what:
 
My jacketed load is the #3035 Hornady 150gr Interlock pushed by 34gr of H4895 and Winchester WLR primers from neck-sized/fire-formed Winchester brass with an OAL of ~2.540" with a moderate crimp applied by a Lee FCD. At 50 yards, I was getting 1"-1.5" groups but my scope mount was having issues so I think it could have been better.

The 10gr/Unique load uses the same brass/primer/crimp setup and the .311" bullets from MBC seated to ~2.505" crimped in the crimp groove. This groups in the 1.5"-2" range also at 50 yards. Point of impact change from the jacketed load will tough to nail down til I get my mounting issue fixed.

Velocity is a giant question mark across the board. My chronograph hasn't shown up from Midway yet ><
 
Thats very impressive results with unique in a rifle cartridge. I'm going to have to give that a try for my own purposes.

Sorry you arent having any luck with H4895.

Given the cost savings using that little amount of unique, is there a reason you'd be favoring using H4895 in place of unique for our cast loadings ?
 
What fps are you pushing them up to? There is a velocity that will cause leading to occur. Over that and you will need to gas check the bullet.

It will depend on how hard cast the bullet is.

I shoot a slightly oversized .460 soft lead bullet from a 45 70 around 1400fps and am getting no excessive leading.
 
See my comment in post #35...no chrono yet....MBC #1 Whitetail bullets are 18BHN.

I found some "youth data" on Hodgdon's website pointing to ~26gr of H4895 for a reduced recoil load. Gonna try bumping it up from the 21.5gr I used before, hopefully accuracy will improve.

On a sidenote, I was able to slug my bore tonight and it mic'd out to a perfect .3090". Time to order a .310" sizer kit from Ranch Dog...with all the folks who shoot .311" sized bullets already, I should be able to seriously tighten these groups with a better powder selection only though.
 
The Micro-Groove® rifling does not work well with cast bullet. This is why Marlin put Ballard-style rifling in there Cowboy rifles for lead bullets.
Click to expand...

The boys over at Marlinowners.com, CastBoolits.gunloads.com, Ranch Dog Outdoors and stuff all over Lasc.us disagree with you there. I would strongly suggest reading some of the posts by 30wcf in this thread...

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,43865.0.html

Also, I am using as cast bullet expander and Missouri Bullet's #1 Whitetail is a bevel-based bullet not plain base. Thirdly, only the Unique loads generated leading in my barrel, the down-loaded H4895 was not burning properly and inaccurate but it did not lead my bore.

It's like some folks don't even read the context of the thread before they post :(
 
Most commercial cast bullet sources feel because of the hardness of their lead, it enables bullets to be shot faster. This is true to a point, but leading and particularly inaccuracy will still occur past that 1400 to 1500fps mark. I've shot and own about 30 cast shooters (20 or so Marlin). I've had good luck shooting my own self cast boolits sized to the .311 or .310 along with a GAS CHECK. That keeps the bullet base from being deformed and uniforms up the progression of velocity. Just yesterday I was shooting my 375WInchester (Marlin) at a velocity of 2300fps. That is a microgroove and I'm easily getting my guns jacketed bullet potential with a similar load. The boolit has to be cast hard and sized appropriately. If I'm shooting a plain base boolit, I will always expect to shoot it under 1500fps. I use a gas check past the 1500fps point. I prefer not to even shoot a 30-30 boolit without a gas check. Plinkers are fine, but best accuracy will always be obtained with a gas check. BUYING commercial gas check boolits are more expensive than jacketed now????
 
Dr. A said:
Most commercial cast bullet sources feel because of the hardness of their lead, it enables bullets to be shot faster. This is true to a point, but leading and particularly inaccuracy will still occur past that 1400 to 1500fps mark. I've shot and own about 30 cast shooters (20 or so Marlin). I've had good luck shooting my own self cast boolits sized to the .311 or .310 along with a GAS CHECK. That keeps the bullet base from being deformed and uniforms up the progression of velocity. Just yesterday I was shooting my 375WInchester (Marlin) at a velocity of 2300fps. That is a microgroove and I'm easily getting my guns jacketed bullet potential with a similar load. The boolit has to be cast hard and sized appropriately. If I'm shooting a plain base boolit, I will always expect to shoot it under 1500fps. I use a gas check past the 1500fps point. I prefer not to even shoot a 30-30 boolit without a gas check. Plinkers are fine, but best accuracy will always be obtained with a gas check. BUYING commercial gas check boolits are more expensive than jacketed now????
Click to expand...

I have no interest in casting my own, so what are my options for using a gas check bullet that are cheap? My desire to go with cast boolits is to save money but still maintain the fun, and accuracy is a key component to the fun.

I noticed a few items after loading and shooting 20 rounds:
1) I need a new neck sizer for the 30-30 with .311 lead bullets. Although the MBC bullet is beveled at the bottom, I was still shaving lead when stuffing them into a normally sized case. Need to investigate my options on this.
2) I loaded up 11gr and 12gr of Blue Dot and got 1439 fps and 1534 fps respectively with a SD less than 20fps. This is in the range I wanted to be in to minimize leading for this round. I hadn't cleaned out my barrel before shooting so i cant really comment on the leading - I haven't even checked! I didn't have a chance to see about accuracy and POA shift, but I'm sure the shift will be significant.
They were very pleasant to shoot with only 760 - 862 ft-lbs of energy.
 
ssyoumans said:
I have no interest in casting my own, so what are my options for using a gas check bullet that are cheap? My desire to go with cast boolits is to save money but still maintain the fun, and accuracy is a key component to the fun.

I noticed a few items after loading and shooting 20 rounds:
1) I need a new neck sizer for the 30-30 with .311 lead bullets. Although the MBC bullet is beveled at the bottom, I was still shaving lead when stuffing them into a normally sized case. Need to investigate my options on this.
2) I loaded up 11gr and 12gr of Blue Dot and got 1439 fps and 1534 fps respectively with a SD less than 20fps. This is in the range I wanted to be in to minimize leading for this round. I hadn't cleaned out my barrel before shooting so i cant really comment on the leading - I haven't even checked! I didn't have a chance to see about accuracy and POA shift, but I'm sure the shift will be significant.
They were very pleasant to shoot with only 760 - 862 ft-lbs of energy.
Click to expand...
Ssyoumans, in regards to your neck sizing issue, a case flaring die is the answer, this is what 243winxb was talking about as a possible cause. I dropped barely $10 on the Lee version since it is A) so much cheaper than Lyman's, B) it's actually available versus eternally backordered and C) not limited to certain calibers or actions. Example: Lyman's M die has 2 separate dies in 30cal...a 30 long and 30 short. The Lee expander works on everything from 22cal up through 45cal with a simple integral plug system that is easily reconfigured.
 
Lee flaring die is definitely a winner.

One of those tools I think should go on the " My bench would be incomplete without it" lists...hey...don't we have one of those floating around?
 
30-30 load

targetcarbine2.jpg
Results with Hornady 100 gr. plinker @ 50 yds, 10 gr. Unique. I'm going to try heavier carbine bullets - 125 RN. Should be almost same as gas-checked lead. Difference in POI between 150 and 100 may be to recoil 'jump' as I was just resting forestock on bags.
 
Just tried H4895 loads between 21.5gr from before up to 27gr and still couldn't keep groups in a 2'x2' area at 50 yards. Leading was atrocious and every case had a funky little ring of lead deposited around the mouth making me think the .311" is too much for it

Fortunately, my local Bi-mart just got some more W748 in so I'm gonna try that while I wait for the .310 sizer to show up...maybe try some significantly shorter OALs that put the crimp ahead of that shoulder.
 
blarby said:
So Jech, did you have any luck ( or have you had any luck ) with the .309's ?
Click to expand...
These .311s were the first bullets I had ever put through this rifle so no I haven't had luck with .309s. Bore slugs out at .3090" so I wasn't planning on trying that size anyway.

My theory on the 10gr/Unique leading is 2-fold... A) using a charge that is very close if not actually max PSI and B) a plain-based bullet using only hard commercial-style lube. Gonna dip a batch in LLA and try a more conventional load workup with Unique using data from Lyman's 4th ed Cast Bullet Handbook, 7.0-9.0gr should be somewhere around 1200-1400fps, hopefully keeping me within the limits of the bullet design. I can't wait til my chrono gets here and I can stop guessing about this stuff!
 
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