.429 Wildcat

[daleraby]

Had an idea the other day for a wildcat:

.429 diameter Keith bullet
.898 case length
240-260 grain bullet
800 fps velocity from a five-inch barrel
1911 platform

Idea would be developed in a story where my character gets to work with Elmer Keith or possibly an alternative history brother of Mr. Keith.

Seems to me this is quite possible, perhaps using .308 Winchester brass as the parent cartridge.

Now, getting a cartridge made would be pretty simple really; just cut down a .308 cartridge then resize it using an RCBS #3 shell holder and .44 Special dies (story is set prior to .44 magnum development) and seat one of Elmer's bullets.

As cartridge performance would be pretty similar to that of .45 ACP, I would anticipate no insurmountable issues with the pistol platform.

I'd kind of like to try this out in the real world before I subject my characters to it though. Anybody know where I could get a 1911 barrel in the correct specifications?

Thanks

 

[mcb]

So a cartridge to fill that "huge" niche between 40S&W and 45 ACP?

 

[daleraby]

Pretty much...

 

[someguy2800]

45 acp is already the same case head diameter as a 308 case. Might as well just neck down a 45acp case similar to a 357 sig.

 

[mcb]

45 acp is already the same case head diameter as a 308 case. Might as well just neck down a 45acp case similar to a 357 sig.

A .400 Cor-Bon is essentially that a 45 ACP necked down to .400.

 

[TRX]

It'd be a shortened .44 AMP...

Back in 1960 H. Beam Piper mentioned an (imaginary) 10mm Colt automatic in one of his stories. But I was intrigued by a gun mentioned in his short story "Police Operation" from 1948:

"And did you find out about my rifle?"

"Oh, yes. It's reproduction of something that's called a Sharp's Model '37 .235 Ultraspeed-Express. Made on an adjoining paratime belt by a company that went out of business sixty-seven years ago, elapsed time, on your line of operation. What made the difference was the Second War Between The States. I don't know what that was, either—I'm not too well up on Fourth Level history—but whatever, your line of operation didn't have it. Probably just as well for them, though they very likely had something else, as bad or worse. I put in a complaint to Supplies about it, and got you some more ammunition and reloading tools."


I have a .235 Ultraspeed-Express reamer and headspace gauges sitting here on my desk. Well, my idea of what Piper might have been thinking.

"Police Operation" is out of copyright and on Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19067

Piper was a gunsmith and handloader as well as a science fiction writer, and it's a rollicking good story that reads a lot more modern than 1948.

 

[daleraby]

Most of the best science fiction was written prior to 1952 or so. Since then we know too much for speculative fiction to be plausible.

 

[mcb]

Most of the best science fiction was written prior to 1952 or so. Since then we know too much for speculative fiction to be plausible.

Screeching tire topic change ...

I love old sci-fi it ages so poorly. That said, as an avid reader of sci-fi of all decades there has still been many great speculative sci-fi written since 1952. ie Neuromancer created an entirely new genre (cyber-punk) of Sci-Fi in 1984 and in many ways it was prophetic even as it utterly failed in other ways.

Now back to the new short and fat 44 cartridge you propose. What exactly is it going to so that 40S&W or 45 ACP can't currently do?

 

[daleraby]

Nothing. Character needs a cartridge with those parameters because what is available is a bunch of 1911's with worn-out 9mm Largo barrels and Elmer Keith to help develop the cartridge. Seems reasonable that given those circumstances, ol' Elmer would suggest a .44 instead of a .45. Now, real world, I would just like to have a wildcat cartridge named after my character and a gun chambered for it. No particular reason for a wildcat is ever really required is there?

 

[mcb]

Nothing. Character needs a cartridge with those parameters because what is available is a bunch of 1911's with worn-out 9mm Largo barrels and Elmer Keith to help develop the cartridge. Seems reasonable that given those circumstances, ol' Elmer would suggest a .44 instead of a .45. Now, real world, I would just like to have a wildcat cartridge named after my character and a gun chambered for it. No particular reason for a wildcat is ever really required is there?

LOL, I have definitely heard worst reasons to create a new cartridge. Go for it!

 

[adcoch1]

Boring a 38 super barrel for a 1911 would be your best option for the gun, maybe use 400 corbon brass and neck it up? Actually use 460 Rowland brass and just taper it down to 429. Load development would be easy and dies could be made by modifying 44 special dies with a taper reamer. Sounds like a fun project, and Starline can make your brass for you when it takes off...

 

[mdi]

Just looking through my copy of Cartridges of The World and see a 44 caliber round from a cut down 30-06/308. Case length 1.298" vs .1.280" for thr 44 Magnum. Called the .44 Auto Mag. (Not sure if it's the same as the .44 AMP)...

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Just looking through my copy of Cartridges of The World and see a 44 caliber round from a cut down 30-06/308. Case length 1.298" vs .1.280" for thr 44 Magnum. Called the .44 Auto Mag. (Not sure if it's the same as the .44 AMP)...

Somebody was making or going to make the auto mag again. Think they were at the 2018 shot show. Not sure if it's a go or not. They had quit making them in the early 80s when I was in high school. Clint Eastwood used the 44auto mag in his last Dirty Harry movie.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

So a 44 auto special. 44asp

 

[TRX]

Give your character a supply of .44 bullets; necessity would drive the development of the wildcat then.

The .44 Auto Mag and .45 ACP have the same case head size, but the AMP is tapered to take the smaller bullet. I'd design a die set to neck the case slightly, like a .400 Whelen or .400 Cor-Bon. Use .45 brass, or any "large head" rifle brass if not - 7x57, 7x57, .30-06, .308, .243, whatever. You need a reaming step with rifle brass since the wall thickness near the head is thicker.

As far as building one for yourself... 1911 barrels are fairly complicated to machine. There are only two really practical steps:

A) get a 9mm, .38, or .40 barrel and send it to one of the places that does cut rifling. There are a handful of shops that do this, mostly levergun or antique restoration specialist smiths. Lead time would probably be on the order nine months to a year.

B) buy a .429 blank with the right twist, or a revolver barrel if it's large enough OD to turn down, take a used .45 barrel, bore the chamber out to a thin ring, turn the barrel to go into it, and silver solder or braze them together. Which sounds crazy, but AMT made some .45 barrels that way (I have one), and some Brazilian Springfields were that way (I've seen one in the metal). Nobody cares for the idea much, and sometimes the lugs will shear off, but they were reliable enough for at least one major and one minor manufacturer to put them on the market in the face of modern warranty and product liability claims. Any good smith or machine shop should be able to do the work. For the 240 grain/800fps load you proposed, I'd have no problems going that route.

Even with a mill, lathe, and lots of tooling, you can't make a 1911 barrel from a blank unless it's a larger-than-standard blank, or you are skilled enough to weld your own barrel feet on.

You'll need custom dies; the only people I've ever dealt with for those was CH4D, and they were quite helpful and the price wasn't out of line. You'll need a reamer; I've parted ways with the place that used to do mine, so I don't have any recommendations. A reamer will cost $150-$200ish. All you need is the finishing reamer unless you plan on making a stack of barrels. You don't *have* to have headspace gauges, but expect to pay another $50-$75 for customs.

Call it $500 for the reamer, gauges, dies, shipping, etc. Re-rifling a rifle barrel seems to be around $250; I wouldn't expect a discount for a pistol barrel. If you have a lathe or access to one, you could save some money by mating a used .44 and a used .45 barrel, but pricing depends on who does the work.

And just to put greasy thumbprints on your rose-colored glasses, any old-time gun crank would look at a barrel full of .44 bullets and a .45 pistol, and either jacket or patch the bullets up to .451, or make a "bump die" to smoosh them up to the larger size.

 

[Jim Watson]

A .44 Auto made by sizing down .45 ACP will have appreciable taper or a faint shoulder. DWM tried the latter for a 9mm Para before going with the tapered 9mm P. Either would call for the special order dies and reamer described by TRX. The tapered case might not feed as well as a straight one.

One possibility would be to cut off .308 cases. The thickness of the brass at that length might MIGHT be enough to let you use a .45 chamber for a .43 bullet.
Plan B would be to simply turn the rims off a supply of .44 Special cases, it has been done for odd size rimless calibers before.
Plan C would be to cut off .35 Remington brass, it's head diameter is within a thousandth of .44 Special. Might have to neck ream.
Any of those would work with standard loading dies.

Still have to have a barrel. TRX's plan B would be the best approach for the well equipped do it yourselfer. Monobloc barrels worked for FN Browning and Springfield Armory Inc. as well as numerous shotguns.

Ammo will take some thought. A true Keith .44 SWC is a long bullet and its flat point is going to add effective length because of the radiused front of the automatic's magazine. You might end by reducing bullet length and weight until you have more nearly a .44-40 auto than a .44 Special auto.

A .45 magazine will probably work; some brands of .45 magazine will feed 10mm or .40.

Note: All these gedankenexperiments assume the OP has the necessary skill and equipment or a large budget. Probably both, you are not doing firearms prototyping on the kitchen table.

 

[edwardware]

Most of the best science fiction was written prior to 1952 or so. Since then we know too much for speculative fiction to be plausible.

My man! You need to get out more! Larry Niven didn't start publishing until 1962.

 

[Jim Watson]

And others, like Lois.
There is a FB group for old SF. It pays more attention to cover art than story, but it is interesting to see how many short stories and novelettes by Golden Age authors sank without a trace, only a minority of their work being repeatedly anthologized as "classics."

 

[Dunross]

So a 44 auto special. 44asp

A .44 Special in an auto cartridge. I'd go for that. Especially in a 1911 frame. Maybe they could squeeze one more round in?

It's an SF story. Go with whatever sounds plausible to advance the story line.

 

[Jim Watson]

Apropo alternaties, just suppose the Indian Wars generals had not been able to push through the .45 to shoot juramentados with. Where would we be?
Everybody knew smokeless powder and automatic pistols were where the action was. We bought 1000 .30 Lugers in 1900 and several 9mms in 1903. The .38 Auto was no slouch and Colt prototyped a .40 Auto but dropped it when it was obvious the Army was determined to go back to .45. Colt tried again later with the 9.8mm but only offered it abroad, same as FN and the very similar 9.65mm Grand Browning.

 

[TRX]

it is interesting to see how many short stories and novelettes by Golden Age authors sank without a trace, only a minority of their work being repeatedly anthologized as "classics."

If someone wants to start a thread in a more appropriate spot so we don't confuse this one any more, I'd be happy to drop my two bits in. I've spent a lot of time in archive.org's pulp magazine collection reading classic SF, and have noticed exactly what you pointed out.

 

[Random 8]

Well, if you're in 9mm Largo land, there should be plenty of 7x57 brass which has the right case head and body for your cartridge. As mentioned above, pretty much a .44 Automag short. With the velocity you're running, a longer case, with the bullet deeply seated for the 1911 rounds ala 7.62 Nagant or a .38spl full wadcutter, would also open the cartridge up for a heavier specialty loading with more powder/velocity and the bullet seated conventionally in a large frame revolver or converted rifle action, as well as some interesting special purpose ammo to make use of that longer case.

 

[WestKentucky]

44wssm sounds like fun!

 

[TRX]

> The .38 Auto was no slouch

The *original* .38 Auto load, the one developed by John Browning hisownself, was something like 130 grains at 1400fps, which is pretty much "yee-haw!" ballistics even today. But the Model 1900s Colt was building started coming apart in customer hands, and Colt cut the power of the .38 *way* down, down into .38 Special territory.

A quarter of a century later they pumped the .38 Auto up to +P+++ and called the new loading ".38 Super." It wasn't quite as hot as the original .38 Auto loading, though.

And it *is* Super; look up the difference in muzzle energy between 1920s-spec Super and USGI .45 hardball. Depending on whose numbers you use for the Super, it has about 25% more muzzle energy than hardball. JMB wasn't fooling around.