44 mag 240 grain keith swc Missouri bullet

[Palladan44]

9 gr (or so) of Unique
20.0gr (or so) of 2400
But everyone already knows this......

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My concern is the keith swc having more bullet in the case than some of the other 240g bullet throwing the case volume off of the load data provided for other bullets...if I crimp in the crimp groove that is

Easy to check since the mold makers, Lyman’s and H&G, also publish scale drawings with measurements of their products. Just measure from the base of the crimp groove to the base of the bullet in your hand and compare it to the mold bullet reloading information. As long as they’re within about thirty thousandths (+/- 0.030”) you’re golden for the starting load up through a median load. As a former aerospace machinist I can drive a truck through a thirty thousandth tolerance.
Start with whichever powder you have the most reasonable loads for your goal.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My methods only, may help a newer reloader; I started reloading waaay pre web (thankfully). I relied on published information (manuals and texts) found in my local library. When I found reloading forums on line, approx. 2007 and I saw anyone could post reloading info. I saw some crazy, dangerous loads posted and some off the wall methods. I formed my Rule #1, I pay very little attention to any load data I see on any forum, or pet loads website (especially youtube), any magazine article, or I hear from any range rat, good intended friend, gun counter clerk or gun shop guru. I sometimes read online/forum data, but never use it in my handloads, mostly for entertainment only, and without triple checking in my published manuals. I get 98% of my load data from published reloading manuals and a few from powder manufacturer's websites. May sound "overthinking and paranoia" but since 1972 I have had no squibs, no Kabooms or near Kabooms. My one squib was in 1971, and learned from that. I have never run out of options when using published manuals and variations loads abound. I've been called "old school uncool" and "caveman reloader", but I have been using my Rule #1 keeping my guns and me safe and providing tons o' fun (in the '80s and '90s I was really into 44 Magnums and enjoyed the wrist breaking recoil and the "sonic boom" muzzle blast, but I never forgot my Rule #1 and have all my fingers). Yep, I know many reloaders can say they have never had a problem with "forum data", but the possibility of harm is still there...

I would highly suggest newer reloaders research their own load data and use forum data only for an idea for where to find good safe data. Reliable, safe, tested data is available and easily found I'm not saying all forum data is bad, but I keep in mind the load I read way back on a forum where a member posted a load (357 Mag.?) that was a full grain over a fast powder's max. The load stayed on the forum for a day and a half when the OP came back with "sorry, I hit the wrong key". How many new reloaders could have used that load and possible damage the their guns or themselves?

Sorry for preaching, but the OP seems to want exact powder charges for his 44 Magnum loads and I just want to convey one of the safety measures that has kept my fingers and guns intact for nearly 50 years...

My rule no.1 is, Don’t do what I do. Rule no.2 is, If it works for you, then it works. Rule no.3 is, Never do something because you’re told to by someone with no vested interest. And, of course, rule 303 is, Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.

 

[EricBu]

So start with 9g of titegroup and ladder load upto 10g ?

God no. Much over 7 in 44 mag just gives you a lot of muzzle flash and recoil, without much velocity gain. You start at the start load in your book. Work up from there. All your questions are answered in your books.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

God no. Much over 7 in 44 mag just gives you a lot of muzzle flash and recoil, without much velocity gain. You start at the start load in your book. Work up from there. All your questions are answered in your books.

9.0gr is the starting load for the 240gr RFN bullet he’s looking at - cast from Linotype.
He didn’t actually understand the chapter in his Lyman Manual about alloys and how to adjust charge weight to match hardness.
MBC uses a much softer alloy so at 9.0gr he will be fine for pressure but accuracy will suffer. And it will not be a fun plinking load.

 

[44magbuster]

9.0gr is the starting load for the 240gr RFN bullet he’s looking at - cast from Linotype.
He didn’t actually understand the chapter in his Lyman Manual about alloys and how to adjust charge weight to match hardness.
MBC uses a much softer alloy so at 9.0gr he will be fine for pressure but accuracy will suffer. And it will not be a fun plinking load.

The MBC claims to be brinell 18

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The MBC claims to be brinell 18

Yes, and Linotype is Brinell 22-24. Hardness of lead alloys is a range effected by casting temperature and cooling time. The difference between BHN 16-18 and 22-24 in a handgun cartridge is extremely significant. There’s lots of detail like that you’ll learn as time goes on. The old manuals had tables of alloys and their compositions but I don’t know if the latest manuals include that anymore. I do know the hardness and how it effects charges is discussed.
Not to worry. You’ll learn at your own pace and that’s fine.

 

[AJC1]

The MBC claims to be brinell 18

The harder the bullet the harder you have to push it for good obteration. Companies make them hard for shipping purposes. In handguns 12 is optimal in my experience. Carbines and rifles can in most cases produce a lot more pressure so harder is not an issue. Around 18 is where I cast rifle bullets.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The harder the bullet the harder you have to push it for good obteration. Companies make them hard for shipping purposes. In handguns 12 is optimal in my experience. Carbines and rifles can in most cases produce a lot more pressure so harder is not an issue. Around 18 is where I cast rifle bullets.

Yes!
There are good reasons for using Linotype in handguns but most of those reasons have to do with corrosion resistance and deeper penetration at lower velocity.
BHN 18 and bevel base are two factors used to prevent bore seal through obturation. Instead, that combination relies on bore fit and lubricity of the coating. The handloader needs to expect gas blow by and compensate by loading at lower pressures.
Again, I really don’t know for sure if that is all discussed in the editions of the latest manuals but it is definitely implied.


ETA: I checked the 3rd Ed. of the Lyman’s pistol and revolver manual and there is an extensive discussion of how and why to use various alloys. I will also note the testing platform for .44Mag is a Universal receiver and 4” unvented test barrel cut for a copper crusher and with a 0.429” groove diameter. The cast bullets used were sized to 0.429” for all of the testing.
There’s a huge amount of information in the manual which is helpful in determining the best way to adjust the listed loads for any proper application. The OP will want to know the cylinder gap, throat diameter and variations, and bore/groove diameter of his firearm - IF he has problems with leading or accuracy. If there’s no significant leading and accuracy is acceptable after load development, I wouldn’t bother.

 

[AJC1]

Yes!
There are good reasons for using Linotype in handguns but most of those reasons have to do with corrosion resistance and deeper penetration at lower velocity.
BHN 18 and bevel base are two factors used to prevent bore seal through obturation. Instead, that combination relies on bore fit and lubricity of the coating. The handloader needs to expect gas blow by and compensate by loading at lower pressures.
Again, I really don’t know for sure if that is all discussed in the editions of the latest manuals but it is definitely implied.

I have avoided bevel base in the molds that I buy for exactly that reason. I've read that most manufacturers round off a lot of features for easy release, and old Elmer said that was terrible for shooting vise ease of casting. Because I pc I'm not as worried about lube grove shape as I am the base.

 

[EricBu]

9.0gr is the starting load for the 240gr RFN bullet he’s looking at - cast from Linotype.
He didn’t actually understand the chapter in his Lyman Manual about alloys and how to adjust charge weight to match hardness.
MBC uses a much softer alloy so at 9.0gr he will be fine for pressure but accuracy will suffer. And it will not be a fun plinking load.

That is an odd start load for TG for a non-jacketed bullet to me. I'm not saying it's over pressure at all.....it's just hotter than it needs to be with zero gain. TG is not a powder for full velocity 44 Mag....you can get to the max pressure, and be nowhere near the velocity you'll achieve with something like AA9 or H110. My Hodgdon manuals have the start load for 240 lead at 4.7, max is 10. There is a jacketed load with a start at 9, but the max is also 10. I understand that Linotype is going to have to be modified and pushed harder than lead.....but if you are going to run that much pressure, you might as well use a correct powder. The benefit of TG is soft recoil plinking rounds with incredible accuracy. If you're going to subject yourself to the recoil that you'll get with 9 grains, might as well swing to AA9 or H110 and get better velocity and accuracy with the same felt recoil. Just my opinion. FYI, I shoot a lot of MBC 240 coated over 7.5 of TG, it's BHN of 18 and obturates just fine, and they are very accurate in my guns.

 

[44magbuster]

9.0gr is the starting load for the 240gr RFN bullet he’s looking at - cast from Linotype.
He didn’t actually understand the chapter in his Lyman Manual about alloys and how to adjust charge weight to match hardness.
MBC uses a much softer alloy so at 9.0gr he will be fine for pressure but accuracy will suffer. And it will not be a fun plinking load.

I'm at work and don't have my book to look thru atm so I should start at the 4.7g of titegroup and work up but not much past around 7g?
I appreciate everyone's help

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

That is an odd start load for TG for a non-jacketed bullet to me. I'm not saying it's over pressure at all.....it's just hotter than it needs to be with zero gain. TG is not a powder for full velocity 44 Mag....you can get to the max pressure, and be nowhere near the velocity you'll achieve with something like AA9 or H110. My Hodgdon manuals have the start load for 240 lead at 4.7, max is 10. There is a jacketed load with a start at 9, but the max is also 10. I understand that Linotype is going to have to be modified and pushed harder than lead.....but if you are going to run that much pressure, you might as well use a correct powder. The benefit of TG is soft recoil plinking rounds with incredible accuracy. If you're going to subject yourself to the recoil that you'll get with 9 grains, might as well swing to AA9 or H110 and get better velocity and accuracy with the same felt recoil. Just my opinion. FYI, I shoot a lot of MBC 240 coated over 7.5 of TG, it's BHN of 18 and obturates just fine, and they are very accurate in my guns.

Lyman’s testing with Linotype is ludicrous, of course. Jacket copper is around 32-34BHN but it is generally very thin so it deforms to rifling.
I agree with the sentiment and your experience but when we tell people to find reliable sources and use them, that advice needs to come with the caveat that the tables in those references are testing results based on a very specific set of components. Unless they’re using the same components interpolation is required. Interpolation requires experience and a solid understanding of the basic principles of handloading. That’s where we come in, I guess.
Anyway, I think the OP would be much better off using the Hodgdon’s data for TiteGroup with that bullet, given the purpose of the load is plinking.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm at work and don't have my book to look thru atm so I should start at the 4.7g of titegroup and work up but not much past around 7g?
I appreciate everyone's help

Take this in the spirit intended, please.
Nobody but a complete idiot is going to tell you what to do. Advice, examples, copies of references… sure. But it’s not reasonable to ask a stranger to tell you how much powder to use, exactly, as an instruction. Too much liability.
We’ve given you source material and advice on how to proceed. The rest is up to you.

 

[AJC1]

Lyman’s testing with Linotype is ludicrous, of course. Jacket copper is around 32-34BHN but it is generally very thin so it deforms to rifling.
I agree with the sentiment and your experience but when we tell people to find reliable sources and use them, that advice needs to come with the caveat that the tables in those references are testing results based on a very specific set of components. Unless they’re using the same components interpolation is required. Interpolation requires experience and a solid understanding of the basic principles of handloading. That’s where we come in, I guess.
Anyway, I think the OP would be much better off using the Hodgdon’s data for TiteGroup with that bullet, given the purpose of the load is plinking.

I love the word interpolate and I do my best to make it a common one in our reloading experiment. I believe it to be an accurate description of a hand loaders process.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I love the word interpolate and I do my best to make it a common one in our reloading experiment. I believe it to be an accurate description of a hand loaders process.

I prefer guesstimate but it has a slightly less precise definition.

 

[AJC1]

I prefer guesstimate but it has a slightly less precise definition.

Maybe the delta is how much of the decision is swag and how much is a knowledge or experience based decision

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Maybe the delta is how much of the decision is swag and how much is a knowledge or experience based decision

Sorry, I was employing a double entendres. The definition of guesstimate changes according to the source you reference but most agree that it is an imprecise measure. Therefore the definition is not precise and the commonly accepted definition is that a guesstimate lacks precision.
I’m glad my day job isn’t doing stand up.

 

[44magbuster]

Take this in the spirit intended, please.
Nobody but a complete idiot is going to tell you what to do. Advice, examples, copies of references… sure. But it’s not reasonable to ask a stranger to tell you how much powder to use, exactly, as an instruction. Too much liability.
We’ve given you source material and advice on how to proceed. The rest is up to you.

Got it ill start with Hodgdons data and ladder test 3 bullets up from there

 

[44magbuster]

 

[44magbuster]

This seems like a solid suggestion for starting points

 

[EricBu]

I prefer guesstimate but it has a slightly less precise definition.

Guestimate is certainly multitudes better than swagging.

 

[44magbuster]

I know about not substituting lrp for lpp but how about using cci 300 primers in place of winchester wlp

 

[sevt_chevelle]

You'll be fine.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I know about not substituting lrp for lpp but how about using cci 300 primers in place of winchester wlp

That’s a good replacement. The WLP have never been my favorite. They’re okay for heavy loads with No.7, HS-6 or WAP but other than that, they’re really not that great.