44 mag. vs. 454 Casull

[Gordon]

I have a Linebaugh .454 conversion Ruger Bisley 4 5/8th that I can barely hang onto with full loads.I'll save it for Alaska bear country.I regularly carry a 4" 629 .44 mag.

 

[Jst1mr]

Just took delivery on mine...believe I'll start out somewhat short of 575 gr, though!! Is there still room for powder??

 

[Majic]

And it has been proven, from time to time, that the .357 can do everything a .44 magnum can do.

Well why did the silhoulette shooters choose to use the .44s over the .357s in their sport?

 

[Redhawk1]

Just took delivery on mine...believe I'll start out somewhat short of 575 gr, though!! Is there still room for powder??

Most people do. I use 300 gr the most in my 460 Mag. As for the 575 gr. there is plenty of room for powder.

 

[stalkingbear]

.44 vs .454

Rachen-I honestly don't know where you formed your OPINIONS but a .357 WON'T do the same job of a .44 and a .44 WON'T do the same thing a .454 or .500 can do!:banghead:

 

[feets]

Operating pressures are not linear. While the 454 has a substantially higher operating pressure than the 44 you can't draw a straight line.

Also, the pressure is in square inches. There's a large difference between the frontal area of .429 and .452 cases. The larger case will require a larger volume to equal the same pressure.
If you really want to get picky, you can look at the increased circumference and find out what additional force is required to overcome the additional drag.

 

[DWFan]

Uh, Majic, the revolvers of choice when silhouetting was at its peak were the Dan Wesson M40 and the Freedom Arms 353...both are .357. To give an idea of how powerful the .454 is, look at the .445 SuperMag. The SuperMag uses a 1.605" case compared to the 1.29" case of the Magnum and 1.38" case of the .454, and the .454 still outperforms it by a considerable margin.

 

[Lazuris]

Whoa Whoa Whoa. Where did you get the 575g loads for the 460. the biggest i've been pushing is the 395g GC from cast performace.

As far as .44 vs .454/460 the 454 is much more powerful in terms of ft/lbs than a .44

From Hornady's web site 1st number velocity, 2nd energy in ft/lbs

44 240g "Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd
1350/971 1231/807 1134/685
"
.454 240g "Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd
1900/1923 1678/1500 1478/1163
"
nuff said.

 

[MCgunner]

I don't need a .454 here. I don't NEED a .44 mag. I don't own one, but do have a .45 Colt Blackhawk that I can load pretty danged hot. It'll take anything in my neck of the woods that a .44 would take. A .454 seems like overkill, but I will have a Freedom Arms in .454 someday, it's on my list for when I have a little more income. I don't NEED it, but need is really not an issue with me. I'll hunt with it, though, when I do get it, probably with .45 colts, LOL!

 

[sheephearder]

While it should be obvious that from the ballistics that the 44 is more gun that a 357 or a 454 is more than a 44, the better question is what is the most gun that you can shoot effectively and shoot enough to become proficient with it. For some there is no limit but for others a 357 or a 44 may be the most they can handle. I have shot 4570s and 444 in TCs as well as 454 revolvers but prefer to stay with 44 or 45s. For me the hand gun is a defencive arm and I chose to hunt with a rifle or shot gun. In my neck of the woods black bear and cougar are common and a 44 or 45lc is my choice. Bill

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

From The Get Go We Get Wrong Information

SoCalShooter
Senior Member



Join Date: 10-03-06
Location: That's for me to know and not you!
Posts: 2,592 Well 454 is as its name implies .454 and a .44mag is a .42 and if I remember correctly a 454 casull is loaded with more powder than a 44mag and the casing is definetly larger.

Ya see SoCal, this is how rumors get started and Everyone in the thread parrots the same misinformation!

The 454 (No Decimal!) in a true .4515 and the 44 Maggie (No Decimal!) is a .43 cal

 

[Redhawk1]

Whoa Whoa Whoa. Where did you get the 575g loads for the 460. the biggest i've been pushing is the 395g GC from cast performace.

Lazuris, I reload, I get the bullets from Ranger Rick out of Homer Alaska.

 

[Redhawk1]

I made a mistake when I said 575 gr. bullets for the S&W 460 Mag, they are 535 gr. My 500 Mag uses the 575 gr. bullets. Sorry about that, but they still are big bullets.

 

[fixxervi6]

I have a 454 and 44, both have a wide range of loads that look to me like they overlap, they make some very very tame 454 loads and you can get +P+ loads for the 44.

I shoot full load 300 grain bullets all the time in my 454, if I wanted 44 mag ballistics I would have bought a 44 mag.

shooting various loads against watermellons and various objects I can tell you the 454 has a LOT more punch than a 44 mag.

The most accurate handgun I have is my 454, I can shoot it better than all the rest and I'm far from being a pro. I can bust pie pans at 50 yard in my sleep with it open site, if I take a rest at 15 yards I can punch the same hole over and over.

One of my worries about the gun when I got it was, am I going to be able to hit anything with this monster, about 50 rounds into the gun I was shooting full load 300 grainers, yes it kicks and kicks hard but its not going to dent forheads unless your a 90lbs woman that doesn't know how to shoot a gun or a total idiot.

If I lived in bear country I would carry a 454 snubbie, not that I hunt bear.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

What is the difference in power between a 44 mag and a 454?

Babbling brook vs. Niagara Falls

No, not that big but pretty significant. Full house .454 Casull is about all the recoil I care to handle without a serious brake, and that's with Taurus's excellent rubber backstrap.

The 454 (No Decimal!) in a true .4515

Ultima, are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure is a standard pistol bullet size - .451 -.452. You're saying that it is *neither* fish (.452 pistol bullet) *nor* fowl (.458 rifle bullet)???

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...oryString=9315***652***19785***9015***7563***

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...oryString=9315***652***19785***9015***7563***

Perhaps you mean .4155, not ".4515"??

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

PS-

A longtime ago three sorta famous gun culture types bumped heads and designed what they thought would be the perfect gas checked hard cast bullet for the early Freedom Arms revolver chambered in the 454 Casull. Dick Casull, Roger Barnes (different) Roger made perfect custom cast bullets and of course Veral Smith who cut perfect bullet moulds and so.....
the 305gn gc modified LFN (long flat nose) was born and was designed to be sized to .4515 to best fit FAs tight chamber throats as well as their custom special twist barrels.

A separate thread could be filled with the many sizes of the .45 Colt in the various manufactures, the Casull started life as a hot triplex load in the old Colt case.

Just being a smart aleck here PS but
No, not that big but pretty significant. Full house .454 Casull is about all the recoil I care to handle without a serious brake, and that's with Taurus's excellent rubber backstrap.

There's full house and then there's FULL HOUSE Casull ammo PS, when Taurus arrived there was still the old blue box FA ammo and SAAMI had not defined pressures on the Casull cartridge. I witnessed two fragged Raging Bull revolver cylinders here in Bo-Hunk Alaska..heard about many more.

 

[Harley Quinn]

.4510= .451, then it goes up from there to the .4515, to .4519, then it is .4520=.452

The midway catalog shows the .451 and .452 Bullets... It could read .45199 before it gets to .45200

44 mag are .429 and .430 I would shoot the smaller in the higher FPS in my 44 mag, if it were me. Same with the .451 or is it .454

Hope this helps

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What is the difference in power between a 44 mag and a 454? There is a discussion among friends. One saying the 454 is around 1.5 times as powerful and the other saying the 454 is 2 times as powerful as the 44 mag.
What is the best overall measure to determine the power of a specific cartridge?

IMO the best way to measure the overall power of a cartridge is the energy the projectile delivers to the target.

This is directly from the Remington site:
.454 Casull 300gr Core-Lokt® Hunting round
Muzzle Velocity - 1625 fps, 1335 fps @ 100 yards
Energy - 1759 ft/lbs @ the muzzle, 1187 ft/lbs @ 100 yards

.44 Magnum 275gr Core-Lokt® Hunting round
Muzzle Velocity - 1235 fps, 1070 fps @ 100 yards
Energy - 931 ft/lbs @ the muzzle, 699 ft/lbs @ 100 yards

According to those numbers the .454 Casull is just about twice as "powerful" as the .44 Magnum. Of course you can achieve much higher numbers in both with handloads but I used factory ammo just as known constant.

Buffalo Bore lists their .44 Magnum 300gr round @ 1350/1215 and their .454 Casull 300gr round @ 1650/1840. Those numbers put the .454 Casull at only 1.5X the "power" of the .44 Magnum but that's only because BB had their .44 Magnum rounds loaded really hot.

It looks like both answers of 1.5X and 2X are correct!! LOL

 

[saturno_v]

Glad .38 Special and Redhawk1 jumped all over that!! And lets all remember, though a S&W .460 is indeed a hand cannon, it only approaches what a .308 rifle round will do...not serious big bear medicine in my mind (but better than nothing in an emergency!)

Nope

The regular commercial rounds for the .460 tops at 2300 ft/lb, a .308 is at about 2700-2800 average...not quite the same power class..

Yes there are particularly hot .460 rounds out there from small manufacturers that can go over that figure, but you can hot rod a .308 too you know....

If you add the fact that a .308 rifle bullet has much better aerodynamics, BC and sectional density, at 100 yards a.460 pistol round will lose in proportion much more energy compared to the .308

After all you do not shoot your game at the muzzle...

P.S.

You cannot extrapolate the power differences between two rounds comparing the pressure values....there is not linear relationship between them

 

[Redhawk1]

Nope

The regular commercial rounds for the .460 tops at 2300 ft/lb, a .308 is at about 2700-2800 average...not quite the same power class..

Yes there are particularly hot .460 rounds out there from small manufacturers that can go over that figure, but you can hot rod a .308 too you know....

If you add the fact that a .308 rifle bullet has much better aerodynamics, BC and sectional density, at 100 yards a.460 pistol round will lose in proportion much more energy compared to the .308

After all you do not shoot your game at the muzzle...

P.S.

You cannot extrapolate the power differences between two rounds comparing the pressure values....there is not linear relationship between them

There is more to take into consideration than just speed. Bullet weight is also a factor.
Go to a ballistic chart and plug in the numbers, you will be surprised at how close a 308 and a S&W 460 Mag are. Now use the same bullet weight.
A S&W 460 Mag with a 200 gr. bullet is go 2300 fps, and a 308 with a 200 gr. bullet may reach 2350 to 2400 fps, not much of a difference there.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

.4510= .451, then it goes up from there to the .4515, to .4519, then it is .4520=.452

Lol, Harley and Ultima Ratio, you are right and I was experiencing brain freeze there - ha. Duh, sorry. .4515 IS .451 (obviously). For some reason I was thinking that he was saying ".455x", not ".451x". One decimal place off. Ignore everything I said. What can I say - I'm an idiot.

Anyhow, Ultima, point taken about full house vs FULL HOUSE. I was talking about Hornady factory, which is probably a pipsqueak load compared to the old F.A. loads.

Interesting discussion and thanks for the good info.

 

[Bigger is Better]

When I owned the SRH, I enjoyed myself to reload hot charges. One of latest loads was a cast 345 grs fired at 1726 fps from my 7.5" SRH and at 1840 fps from my friend's 10" Freedom Arms: means more of 2250 fpe from mine and 2560 fpe from FA!!! Cost? Recoil broke our arms like a stick stroke

 

[saturno_v]

There is more to take into consideration than just speed. Bullet weight is also a factor.
Go to a ballistic chart and plug in the numbers, you will be surprised at how close a 308 and a S&W 460 Mag are. Now use the same bullet weight.
A S&W 460 Mag with a 200 gr. bullet is go 2300 fps, and a 308 with a 200 gr. bullet may reach 2350 to 2400 fps, not much of a difference there.

Of course bullet weight is a factor....however for the .308 200 gr is not the ideal weight for that caliber.

I did look at several data from the major manufacturers (Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc...) and on average, at 100 yards a 180 gr .308 retain more energy than a ~260 gr .460 at the muzzle.

And this with all the penetration advantages of the .308 bullet (better sectional density)

Between the two, with proper bullets I would take a.308 rifle over a .460 revolver against dangerous critters any time of the day...

 

[Redhawk1]

saturno_v, yes you are right to a point. The 200 gr. bullet is not the ideal weight for that caliber (308 Win). But you cannot compare apples to oranges either.

Myself, I would take a big hole over a smaller hole. But then again, I am more of a handgun hunter.

 

[saturno_v]

I'm just comparing penetration capability which is fundamental to reach vitals of large thick skinned predators...and in that regard the .308 has a significant edge...
And energy is very important too