44 Special ccw velocity?

[38riverrat]

The popularity of 44 SPL for SD should go up with the release of the new S&W M69.
The 2 piece barrel promises excellent accuracy.

Best,
Rick

 

[DPris]

Dunno about any accuracy promises, but we'll see.
Denis

 

[35 Whelen]

I don't have many "posed", purty pictures with my .44 Specials, but here's what I have:

My "Not Just Another Pretty Face" Uberti that really gets used:



The first of three to her credit last season:



Another Uberti. a sort of stepchild, whose duties are pretty much relegated to Cowboy Action matches, but nonetheless, a shooter:





My latest oddball, a Uberti Open Top, that has been so much fun to shoot:




The little Flat Top Blackhawk:





Another recent acquisition that I just haven't been able to warm up to. A S&W 24-3. It's my understanding that there's only 2651 more like her in the world:



My 3rd Generation Colt:





Then of course, little tuffy:



I think that's all of them.....

35W

 

[Catshooter]

How nice. Man, you've got quite the set. I want the first one bad.


Cat

 

[stressed]

Never shot .44 spl. I'm guessing it's very similar to .45lc in ballistics?

 

[Catshooter]

It can be. In guns of equal strength the Colt can produce more power of course as it's bore is bigger and it's case is quite a bit larger.

Both are excellent rounds, very capable.


Cat

 

[tipoc]

I don't have many "posed", purty pictures with my .44 Specials, but here's what I have:

Seem oddly "purty" to me.

tipoc

 

[DM~]

Yeah, if the jacketed bullet does exactly what it's supposed to. Cast bullets at moderate velocity work more consistently and seldom fail. More velocity is not always a good thing.

IF you have problems picking jacketed bullets that work for you, that's on you. I just don't have that problem at all, so I get all the benefits of having a bit more velocity, for the faster kills!

DM

 

[35 Whelen]

IF you have problems picking jacketed bullets that work for you, that's on you. I just don't have that problem at all, so I get all the benefits of having a bit more velocity, for the faster kills!

DM

A bit more velocity? How's that? Grain for grain cast bullets will yield more velocity than jacketed bullets due to reduced resistance in the barrel. If you're insinuating jacketed can be run at higher velocities out of handguns because of the propensity of lead bullet to lead barrels, that's an old wives tale that's been proven false many times.

I personally can't see that a jacketed bullet has anything to offer over a cast bullet. I certainly don't begrudge folks that prefer jacketed bullets in handguns, I just have no use for them.

35W

 

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen what mold is that I like the way it looks and Craig C I'd love to see your 5 44 specials please everybody else pics are more than welcome

Horsemen, those full wadcutters are out of an old Lyman 429348 mould I got in this week. I cast those out of an alloy that was roughly 60% pure lead and 40% wheelweights. They came out at 185 grs. and about 10 Bhn.

I fired a few cylinders full out of my old 3" Bulldog when I got in this evening, starting with 6.5 grs. of Unique which ran 832 fps and stopping at 8.0 grs. which ran right at 1000 fps. I then tried 4.5 grs. of Clays which ran them 850 fps and 5.0 grs. of Clays which netted 900 fps. I had to stop there as the wife was nagging me to come in the house.

Both the Clays loads, although impacting a little low were very, very accurate. I was firing somewhat informally, offhand at about 10 yds. and getting tiny 5-shot clusters that didn't amount to much more than a large ragged hole!

35W

 

[Drail]

Those wadcutters would be a very good CCW round. That's gotta hurt. 35 Whelen - you have exquisite taste in handguns. Thanks for the memories.

 

[DM~]

A bit more velocity? How's that? Grain for grain cast bullets will yield more velocity than jacketed bullets due to reduced resistance in the barrel. If you're insinuating jacketed can be run at higher velocities out of handguns because of the propensity of lead bullet to lead barrels, that's an old wives tale that's been proven false many times.

I personally can't see that a jacketed bullet has anything to offer over a cast bullet. I certainly don't begrudge folks that prefer jacketed bullets in handguns, I just have no use for them.

35W

Apparently you didn't take the time to read the WHOLE thread, if you had you would have read #28 and would be "up to speed" , on what I was talking about.

DM

 

[35 Whelen]

Yep...read #28, 58 and 62 and still don't know what you're alluding to.

 

[Hondo 60]

I don't carry it, cuz it's too big IMHO, but my Ruger Redhawk 44 is very accurate.

In 44 Spl I'd guess it averages about 850 fps with my own reloads.

In 44 Mag - 1300 fps.

 

[zeke]

Older post, have settled on 8.8 grains n-350, or 7.8 grains unique to get about 890-900 fps from 696. Drops down to about 860 fps from Taurus 445, which is much lighter and easier to conceal carry in Theis hybrid holster. Like the looks of those lighter full wadcutters posted.

Win brass, Fed 150 primer, firm LFC, 3 in 696,

200 gn gold dot
8.8 grains V V - N350 = 885 fps, very good accuracy
9.0 gns V V - N350 = 926 fps, very good to ex accuracy
7.5 grains Unique = 868 fps very good accuracy

185 Hdy xtp (Rem 180 sjhp is good also)
9.0 grains unique = 1020 fps very good to ex accuracy, 8.5 grains milder practice load
9.6 grains N350 = 986 fps, decent accuracy

200 grain lead rnfp to replicate poi of 200 grain gold dot loads
6.4 grains hp 38 = 821 fps, very good accuracy
7.0 grains unique = 805 fps, good potential
5.4 grains Red Dot = 830 fps, decent
6.2 grains Green Dot = 870 fps, good potential

Older factory rounds
Blazer aluminum case factory load = 890 fps
Win silvertip factory load = 730 fps, lousy accuracy
hdy 180 xtp = couldn't find the vhrono results, but remember they were pretty light

 

[DM~]

Yep...read #28, 58 and 62 and still don't know what you're alluding to.

Well, I didn't "allude" to anything. I said it straight out....and i'll do it again here.

YES big slow lead bullets that penetrate well, kill things. BUT, when you speed the bullet up, it kills MUCH faster!

"IF" jacketed bullets come into play, there's NO problem these days, finding and getting jacketed bullets to take the higher velocity (that kills faster) and perform properly.

In my handguns, I mostly shoot lead bullets, but there's no question that the faster the bullet goes, with decent penetration, the faster it kills (other than a CNS hit) and at some point I go to jacketed bullets to get the added performance advantage.

I remember when I shot my first moose with my model 29, using a hard cast 265 grain bullet. It was 55 yards away, and I hit it twice, with the second shot a running shot... when I found it, it needed a finisher.

While butchering it, I remember how disappointed I was with the bullet performance, saying to myself, "my .243 with 100 grain Nosler Partitions would have done a much better job!"

With ----------> THAT shot, with the experience I already had with NP's, had shown me that the NP would have penetrated just as deep with a lot more tissue damage.

That was in the 70's and since then, i've harvested a LOT of big game, and have studied one heck of a lot of bullet performance on big game. What I post here is MY experiences, NOT what I read and I'm not just repeating what I've been told.

DM

 

[35 Whelen]

Straight out? It's taken four posts for you to begin to get your point across, and then again, I'm still not sure I understand.

I think what you're saying is jacketed bullets are better, in your experience, because you don't know how to cast a lead alloy bullet that will withstand the velocities at which you're running jacketed bullets out of your handguns. Is that correct?

But then re-reading your last post, where you referred to using a "hard cast" bullet leads me to believe your loading "one size fits all" commercial cast bullets in which case I fully understand your frustration with cast bullets. This because "hard cast" is not a term used by most individual bullet casters, but used by many of the commercial lead bullet casters.

So, now I think we've established that you're either needing help casting a bullet that will withstand higher velocities OR you are, by choice, using commercial bullets.

If it's an expanding handgun bullet you prefer, they certainly can be cast and the beauty of that is, unlike jacketed bullets, the expansive qualities can easily be tailored to individual handguns, cartridges and impact velocities unlike jacketed handgun bullets which I assume have to work with everything from a light .44 Special load to a heavy .44 Magnum load.

There's some excellent information on this subject at the Los Angeles Shooting Club website. Check it out!!

35W

 

[Catshooter]

Anyone using the term 'a hard cast bullet' doesn't understand current casting technology. It is a marketing term, some what like "Kleenex" or "Q Tips".

There is a world of difference between hard cast and cast hard. Kinda like calling those fine (and they are fine) Nosler Partitions "tips" instead of bullets.


Cat

 

[DM~]

Well, I've been casting bullets since the 60's, I've been swageing lead and jacketed bullets since the 70's.

I've designed/swaged my own bullet designs at that time, and even mfg'd NEW ammo for sale with my own bullets loaded in them, so I guess I do know a little bit about bullets and how they perform...in live animals, as that's how much of my testing was done...

Stop trying to read between the lines, trying to make what I say fit your argument!

I put it out there in plain English enough times now, if you don't get it by now, there's no hope for you and I give up! lol

DM

 

[tipoc]

You seemed clear to me DM. I understood the point.

"IF" jacketed bullets come into play, there's NO problem these days, finding and getting jacketed bullets to take the higher velocity (that kills faster) and perform properly.

In my handguns, I mostly shoot lead bullets, but there's no question that the faster the bullet goes, with decent penetration, the faster it kills (other than a CNS hit) and at some point I go to jacketed bullets to get the added performance advantage.

These days it's possible to get expanding bullets for handgun loads that meet a variety of criteria. Some that work well at different velocities and that penetrate and expand as reliably as any jhp can.

If another fella prefers to cast his own so that they meet or exceed the velocities of the jhp in a given gun then I don't see the point of arguing. I would expect the rounds to perform a bit differently though. The end result may be the same.

tipoc

 

[35 Whelen]

Well, I've been casting bullets since the 60's, I've been swageing lead and jacketed bullets since the 70's.

DM

You've been casting bullets since the '60's and you still don't know how to keep a cast bullet from leading your barrel?!?

35W

 

[Catshooter]

I started casting in the early 70s. I didn't learn the real technology behind casting until I joined the CastBoolits web site in 2005.

Did I cast a lot? Oh tons. But not nearly as easily as today. Now when I get leading I know how to fix it. I know how & when to flux and to never use something like Marvelux. Usually, now, the very first bullets that drop out of the mould are good ones. And I know what to do when they don't want to drop either.

I could go on and on. There are sooooooooooooooooooo many old wives tales and just pure crap in the world of casting it's incredible that anyone does it at all.

It sure has changed my enjoyment level of casting to learn the simple, easy and repeatable solutions to the ordinary casting problems.

Just because I'd been doing it for more than forty years doesn't mean I was doing it right.


Cat

 

[dickydalton]

44 Special CCW velocity turned into a fight about what type of bullet kills moose and deer better. Go figure.

 

[35 Whelen]

I started casting in the early 70s. I didn't learn the real technology behind casting until I joined the CastBoolits web site in 2005.

Did I cast a lot? Oh tons. But not nearly as easily as today. Now when I get leading I know how to fix it. I know how & when to flux and to never use something like Marvelux. Usually, now, the very first bullets that drop out of the mould are good ones. And I know what to do when they don't want to drop either.

I could go on and on. There are sooooooooooooooooooo many old wives tales and just pure crap in the world of casting it's incredible that anyone does it at all.

It sure has changed my enjoyment level of casting to learn the simple, easy and repeatable solutions to the ordinary casting problems.

Just because I'd been doing it for more than forty years doesn't mean I was doing it right.


Cat

^^^^^ This is me exactly, only for about 10 years. I was so bad at it, that cast bullets were more of a novelty; just something to shoot at the berm. Then I found then Cast Boolit site and saw what home-cast bullets were really capable of!

35W

 

[CraigC]

IF you have problems picking jacketed bullets that work for you, that's on you. I just don't have that problem at all, so I get all the benefits of having a bit more velocity, for the faster kills!

FACT: A jacketed bullet must perform as designed to work properly.

FACT: They don't always perform as designed.

FACT: They figured out 80yrs ago that big and slow bullets would glance off angled obstructions, like windshields. That the higher velocity .38-44 and .357 were more likely to penetrate.

FACT: That is entirely irrelevant when it comes to critters that are not standing behind windshields or angled hardwood boards.

A good jacketed bullet that does what it's supposed to usually does kill a little faster. Which is fine for deer and antelope but for anything bigger, I'd rather use a cast bullet. Why? Lower failure rate.