4473 and why people may be denied

[Sentryau2]

OK so I'm in an argument here with some family members over the 4473 back ground check. It is true that the SSN is optional isnt it? I've seen that on all the photographs of forms ive seen. My mother originally got barred from purchasing an ar-15 as a gift for me (I am underage) due to her having bipolar disorder? Thats what she seems to think, however that same day my grandmother was able to pass the back ground check to purchase a firearm that was identical to the one my mother planned to purchase, and we got the gun that day. She is not bipolar, and I'm assuming she DID put her SSN as well. If this is optional then why bother? I'm not wearing a tin foil hat or anything but it just seems like useless info that could be misused. So say if my mother was to buy another gun and did not put her SSN is it likely she would have passed the back ground check? Also would you please explain that there is NO gun registry and that when I am 18 I will not have to file out ANY paper work to "transfer" the rifle to me. I also have a question myself, after the 4473 is filed what is done with it? Is the information stored and if so for how long? Thank you for your help.

 

[PabloJ]

Actually if person filling out application marks NO to are you the actual buyer of firearm the sale will be denied. The SSN on both forms I filled out was optional because I left space blank and still got instant approval on sale.

 

[General Geoff]

Firstly, the SSN field is to help with individual identification. A guy named John Smith is not easily distinguished from the countless John Smiths with serious criminal records.

As for whether you need to fill out paperwork to possess the rifle when you turn 18, that depends on what state you're in.

 

[ngnrd]

Actually if person filling out application marks NO to are you the actual buyer of firearm the sale will be denied.

True. But, if mom/grandma is buying the firearm as a bona fide gift, they are the actual purchaser, so they should check the "yes" box. [not a straw purchase]

If you gave mom/grandma money to buy it for you, they are not the actual purchaser, and would be prohibited from buying the firearm. [is a straw purchase]

 

[Zeke/PA]

In my opinion, Form 4473 only matters to the law abiding.
Supposedly in 2012 nationwide, over 80 thousand form 4473's contained fradulent answers to the questions, resulting in less than 2 dozen arrests/prosecutions.

 

[Sam1911]

There are specific questions on the 4473 (under question 11) that need to be answered exactly the right way or you'll be immediately disqualified from purchase.

Item "a" has to do with who the purchaser is. She could have gotten that wrong (or right, depending) and been denied.

Item "f" has to do with mental health issues. She could have gotten that wrong (or right, depending) and been denied.

She also could have a name that triggers a "false positive" for another prohibited person. Putting down her social security number would help keep that from happening.

 

[VaGunNut]

The optional ssn is for speeding up the background check process. If your name is similar with many others eg. Smith, then a ssn will specifically move your check along. My name is unique and I never give my ssn. I've never had a problem and my check is almost always instantaneous.

 

[Sentryau2]

I just looked over the 4473 form ( I dont understand, she was never adjudicated mentally defective to that extent.) When we originally went to pick the gun up we were told they were "halting" the sale (and from what the store owner said mostly all of his other sales) and that they had the power to do that for up to 3 days. We where then called the second day saying she had been denied so my grandmother ended up filling out the form 4473 and was not denied? This system seems extremely flawed to me.

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, the NICS system will occasionally have delays while they try to sort out if you're this Jane Smith who's a great lady or that Jane Smith who blew up a medical center or whatever.

And it does indeed send back false positive hits from time to time.

Look up the "UPIN" as one way to fix the problem of false hits.

 

[bikemutt]

There are many reasons why a person may be denied by NICS, ranging from being a prohibited person to NICS being mistaken.

The social security number is optional and serves to refine the NICS search. In the case of someone who is going to be denied anyway, the difference between furnishing a SS# and not is most likely a quick deny versus a delay followed by a deny.

With respect to record retention, my understanding is proceed transaction records are destroyed within a day; denied transactions are retained for years.

The single biggest reason I see for not providing a SS# is the prospect of the FFL dealer, who has to keep those forms for years, becoming victimized by identity thieves. It's unlikely to happen, but certainly not impossible. That said, I almost always give mine, despite having a UPIN, I reallly, really want them to know it's me and not the guy who caused me to get denied a couple years ago

 

[Sentryau2]

Thanks for you help guys, i understand now, it most likely was a false positive even with her SSN thats the only thing it could have been.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Does she have an unpacked speeding ticket? That would make her a fugitive from justice and thus, a prohibited person.

 

[Sentryau2]

Nope nothing at all

 

[natman]

Yes, the SSN is optional. It's there to distinguish you from some felon who's also named Tom Smith.

Let's take a look at the mental health question:

f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

This means that you have to have been formally judged a danger to yourself or others or committed to a mental institution.

Having sought treatment from a psychiatrist is not enough to disqualify someone, at least not yet.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

I ALWAYS get delayed first.. Its a pain in the butt.

 

[morcey2]

Does she have an unpacked speeding ticket? That would make her a fugitive from justice and thus, a prohibited person.

That got me denied a couple of years ago. It wasn't an unpaid ticked, but it was a 3-year-old ticket that the court still had it marked as unpaid. I still had the receipt and was able to get it cleared up the same day. I did have to drive to the court in one county, to the BCI headquarters up in Salt Lake county, and then back to the pawn shop in a third county. I had received my C&R FFL about 3 months earlier and this would have blocked that so I don't know what happened between that and the denial.

OP: You may want to go back and re-word your original post. It makes it sound a lot like your grandma is guilty of a straw purchase. Whether you're a restricted person or not has no bearing on whether it's a straw purchase. If it was a gift with her money, not an issue.

Matt

 

[Rob G]

As many others have said the SSN is an optional thing which may or may not help speed up an application. In my strange case I have a pretty uncommon last name so I never thought it would be an issue. But then I started getting delayed because there's another individual in my town with the same first and last name (something I never thought I'd see) who apparently has some DV issues. So I started adding my SSN to the form and now my approvals go through on the spot.

 

[Sentryau2]

I re-worded to clear things up. I didnt even realize I did that, maybe lack of sleep does effect me. Thank all of you for your help, I've got it figured out.

 

[mgkdrgn]

OP: You may want to go back and re-word your original post. It makes it sound a lot like your grandma is guilty of a straw purchase. Whether you're a restricted person or not has no bearing on whether it's a straw purchase. If it was a gift with her money, not an issue.

Matt

He may want to go back and ERASE that entire section of the post, because it IS a straw purchase. First person got denied, 2nd person went in to get it for them. Classic case.

 

[Sentryau2]

No it was not a straw purchase. My grandmother used her money to buy a gun that was the exact same as the one my mother was intending to purchase, but it was a different firearm.

 

[ngnrd]

If you gave grandma money, or asked her to buy the firearm, it's a straw purchase.
If mom gave grandma money, or asked her to buy the firearm, it's a straw purchase.

If grandma volunteered to buy it, and paid for the gun herself, and gave it to you as a bona fide gift, it's not a straw purchase.

As far as I know, there are no regulations regarding how many individuals can give - or attempt to give - a person a bona fide gift. Mom's denial does not change the fact grandma's purchase was - or was not - a bona fide gift. If grandma was not asked to buy the firearm, and there was no agreement for grandma to be paid back, grandma is correct to answer "YES" to question 11a on the form 4473, and that portion of the purchase is legit.

 

[Sentryau2]

she volunteered because my mother was denied, not intending to be paid back. I didnt think my post was that confusing, atleast not after I edited it the first time to clear things up.

 

[suemarkp]

You should tell us what city and state you're in, as there are federal rules and state/city rules that are all summed together at the gun shop.

The 4473 will be retained by the gun shop for 20 years and then they can destroy it. If they don't stay in business that long, they have to turn the forms in to the ATF. ATF may happen to find an excuse to come in and photocopy that 4473 between now and 20 years from now....

The background check is a separate process. Parts of that are written on the 4473 form, but the 4473 is a purchase/transfer record and has been around since 1968 (way before we had background checks).

If your mom is ever considering purchasing a gun, she needs to find out why she was denied. Perhaps try again using the SSN. If that fails, then she needs to go down the long UPIN path. I doubt the state knows she's bipolar, and in most places that should not be a disqualifying factor (note I said most places -- that's why we need your city/state).

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I never use my Socialist Insecurity Number and never get a delay. I've never gotten a delay for loosing 150 lb in the last 2 years and filling out many 4473s with incrementally lower weights either although it always gives me a chuckle
Most of the questions are explained in detail on the back.


Mike