4473 Military Discharge status question

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herrwalther said:
This is a military problem not wanting to share criminal data with civilians.
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How is it a military problem? The shooter was a civilian.

I don't think it's a matter of not wanting to share information. Maybe the military has never been directed to share the information. Everything the military does comes from the command. Everything the command does comes from the Pentagon. The Pentagon is not DOJ, it's DOD and now headed by a USMC general. Did Sessions ask for all of the information, I doubt it.
 
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So what's the process? Do they fax the court proceedings to NICS ? Or fax a copy of the conviction over to NICS? Or do they email it to NICS?
 
CoalTrain49 said:
How is it a military problem? The shooter was a civilian.

I don't think it's a matter of not wanting to share information. Maybe the military has never been directed to share the information. Everything the military does comes from the command. Everything the command does comes from the Pentagon. The Pentagon is not DOJ, it's DOD and now headed by a USMC general. Did Sessions ask for all of the information, I doubt it.
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Former military member. With a record earned in the military. Had his record been reported he would have not been able to legally purchase a rifle. So maybe he would have bought a stolen rifle. Maybe he could not have gotten one and used a bat. Or a truck. Still the Air Force dropped the ball. And the report the DOD released said out of 1100 some off felonies they looked at, 30% of them were not reported to NICS. That is a systemic failure that puts civilians at risk at the hands of former military with bad records and mental issues.
 
herrwalther said:
Former military member. With a record earned in the military. Had his record been reported he would have not been able to legally purchase a rifle. So maybe he would have bought a stolen rifle. Maybe he could not have gotten one and used a bat. Or a truck. Still the Air Force dropped the ball. And the report the DOD released said out of 1100 some off felonies they looked at, 30% of them were not reported to NICS. That is a systemic failure that puts civilians at risk at the hands of former military with bad records and mental issues.
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And someone should pay for this -- officers have responsibilities, and when they fail, they should be disciplined.
 
CoalTrain49 said:
How is it a military problem? The shooter was a civilian.
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The shooter was a member of the military when he committed crimes for which he was convicted by a court-martial and the military was legally required to report his firearms disqualification to NICS.

CoalTrain49 said:
I don't think it's a matter of not wanting to share information. Maybe the military has never been directed to share the information. Everything the military does comes from the command. Everything the command does comes from the Pentagon. The Pentagon is not DOJ, it's DOD and now headed by a USMC general. Did Sessions ask for all of the information, I doubt it.
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January 16, 2013 -- Presidential Memorandum -- Improving Availability of Relevant Executive Branch Records to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System

If the people in the military missed reading, or failed to comprehend, the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 (NIAA) (Public Law 110-180), the above Presidential Memorandum was directly addressed to the heads of executive departments and agencies - specifically including the Department of Defense.
 
gc70 said:
The shooter was a member of the military when he committed crimes for which he was convicted by a court-martial and the military was legally required to report his firearms disqualification to NICS.



January 16, 2013 -- Presidential Memorandum -- Improving Availability of Relevant Executive Branch Records to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System

If the people in the military missed reading, or failed to comprehend, the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 (NIAA) (Public Law 110-180), the above Presidential Memorandum was directly addressed to the heads of executive departments and agencies - specifically including the Department of Defense.
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That seems to be the legal authority to require the DOD to submit the records. It puts the onus on the attorney general and a working group though to implement the order. If some procedures were in fact set out by the AG and the group it would have to appear in the form of DOD Instruction to command from the defense department. I'm not finding anything like that in a search, or it may not be published or I don't have good search skills.

How far did the effort go by attorney general Holder. I think most of his time was spent getting people out of prison so they could hit the streets to commit more crime.

We had an incident here a few years ago where a tribal member went to his high school and killed 3 people with a pistol. The pistol belonged to his dad who was a prohibited person. He purchased the pistols at Cabelas on the reservation where he lived. It was later determined that his prohibited status was never given to NCIC and he passed the NICS no problem.

My point is we're chasing our tails here trying to put the blame on the USAF, or a court clerk, or a tribal council. Lives are lost because of a failed system. But you can blame some staff sergeant if you want because an AF officer is just going to say he never saw the DOD instruction if it even exists.
 
alsaqr said:
The US military has a very spotty record when it comes to reporting crimes to the FBI. The DOD IG dinged the military services in 1997, 2015 and again in 2017.

https://media.defense.gov/2015/Feb/12/2001713470/-1/-1/1/DODIG-2015-081.pdf
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Looks like they're moving at lightning speed to resolve this.:( If you've ever been in the military you will understand they don't run the organization like anything remotely related to anything on this planet. They row their own boat.
 
I think that we are missing the forest for the trees.

NICS is, and always will be, a flawed and broken system. Far too many people that it is intended to stop get a green light, and far too many people who should not be infringed get a red light. Even if NICS data was perfect, and perfectly administered, which will never happen, it does absolutely nothing, and never could, to stop criminals.

So, instead of trying to fix it, we should be fighting to eliminate it.
 
"...Shouldn't the DD be in the NICS record database..." You're trying to apply logic where none exists. No two government(anywhere) agencies, departments or services would ever share information about their employees.
"...officer should be disciplined..." That'll never happen. Lowest ranker will be blamed and punished.
 
Sistema1927 said:
I think that we are missing the forest for the trees.

NICS is, and always will be, a flawed and broken system. Far too many people that it is intended to stop get a green light, and far too many people who should not be infringed get a red light. Even if NICS data was perfect, and perfectly administered, which will never happen, it does absolutely nothing, and never could, to stop criminals.

So, instead of trying to fix it, we should be fighting to eliminate it.
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Of the last 6 firearms I've purchased 3 were delivered to me with a delay in place. The time period had elapsed and by law the dealer could deliver the firearm without a proceed, and did. Not uncommon. That's how utterly broken the system is. I'm not a prohibited person but the system can't determine that fact in 3 business days. Granted, there are a lot of people with my name, but none of them live at my address, were born in the same city, are the same height and weight, have the same birthday, the same SSN or drivers license number which I provide.

I even have a license to carry concealed. Does it matter if I'm legally carrying a concealed pistol when I fill out the 4473. Nope. The chances that I will be delayed are still 50/50.

NICS doesn't work and a lot of dealers are making a living charging people to run the checks. The system shouldn't allow any private individual to profit from running a check. It could easily be done by a local LE agency and a license to purchase issued.

Note that Texas didn't issue a permit to Kelley. Probably because their background check was just a shade more thorough. Big surprise there.
 
"Note that Texas didn't issue a permit to Kelley. Probably because their background check was just a shade more thorough."

The shooter was arrested in El Paso after he escaped from the NM mental facility. That arrest would have nixed the concealed carry thing.
 
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