.45-70 Carbine loads

[Bart Noir]

Warning, this isn't about modern loads. Purely a historical question.

I find some conflicting info about the US Army load for the trapdoor carbine. My 1880's manual says that the bullet is the same but the carbine load was only 55 gr of BP. There is other info that the carbine load was 70 Gr BP with a 405 grain bullet insted of 500 (the rifle load). Which is right, or are they both right?

Similar question about the .50 Government cartridge, the first one that was used in the trapdoor. Was the carbine round physically shorter? I know that some sources say yes, but some say no. What was the load of powder and bullet weight?

Bart Noir

 

[Johnny Guest]

Way I understand it - - -

The recoil from the infantry rifle load, the 45-70-500, was murderous in the lighter, shorter, carbine. Dunno about the progression of loads, but I believe they ended up with a .45-55-405 for the carbine. The short gun would still shoot the more powerful load - - I just wasn't much fun.

I don't have my copy of Frank Barnes' fine work, Cartridges of the World with me. It is well worth buying a copy, BTW.

Best,
Johnny

 

[Art Eatman]

Back when mountains weren't so high, I recall reading that the 500-grain bullet was for rifles; 405-grain bullet for carbines. Howsomever, after using your salt shaker...And I don't recall reading about a lighter powder charge for the carbine ammo.

FWIW, Art

 

[Jim Watson]

Original 1873 issue was .45-70-405.
That was a hard kicker in carbines so they cut it to .45-55-405. Still in the 2.1" case with card wads to fill the space.
In or about 1881 the rifle load bullet weight was increased to 500 grains for better long range performance, .45-70-500. Carbine was left at 405, best I can tell.

Cartridges of the World says there was a .50 Carbine round, .50-45-400 in a shorter case than the .50-70-450 Government Musket. Can't have amounted to much, Flayderman says they only made 341 .50 carbines in 1871 with no mention of any earlier or later. They were doing a lot of Cadet rifles in those days, though. But he doesn't say if they were chambered for the Musket or Carbine version.

There were a bunch of Sharps converted from percussion to .50-70, nearly all carbines. I have shot one of those and it is a handful.