45-70 cast bullet selection (guide gun)

[kayak-man]

Hey Guys, hope y'all are enjoying the holidays!

I know I can be long winded so if you want the cliff notes version, here it is:
- I have a Marlin guide gun in 45-70, and I would like to cast bullets for it
- my primary concerns are cost and terminal ballistics
-ideally a load I could use to hunt anything on the face of the earth, but I'm ok with limiting it to North America for now.

For the more patient, here's the long version:

I've been shooting the Hornady LeverEvolution 325 grain rounds, and liked them great for the range, and I'll probably try to shoot a cougar with one this season, but I would like to start shootin cast bullets. The primary reason for this is that it sounds like heavier cast bullets in the 405 grain ballpark are more effective on game, both for hunting and defense against larger bears. A very close second is price: I figure the more ammo I can shoot, the better I will be able to shoot my rifle, with the eventual goal of being comfortable shooting it to around 200 yards in practice, and stretching my hunting shots out to around 150 yards.

In addition to hunting, this rifle also will fill a defensive roll when I'm out in the boonies, or if I go adventuring up in Alaska again, and I feel like just because something is a great hunting rifle and bullet, it doesn't automatically become a great round for things like angry bear and moose.

The specific questions I'm having a hard time figuring out are:
- what shape bullet would be good for both the hunting and defensive rolls the rifle will be performing in?
- while the older trapdoor loadings sound like they are the cats pajamas for hunting, would a little hotter loading be a good idea for defense against natures biggest and baddest critters?
- if he answer to that is yes, does that mean I should start looking at hard cast bullets or soft cast with a gas check?
- it sounds like if I was going to hunt say a griz or a water buffalo, hard cast bullets would be preferable, but softer lead would be better for something like hog, deer, cougar, maybe even black bear...if so can I make hard and soft cast bullets with the same mold?

I'm sure I will have other questions soon, but thanks in advance for the input. I'm trying to not just come out and say "I want the one magic bullet that is affordable to reload, and will kill anything walking the earth" although that is kind of sort of what I'm trying to figure out.

Keep your stick on the ice,
Chris J

 

[243winxb]

Seen a Laser cast at the range in 459 dia, 405 gr being pushed by IMR 3031, it was very accuratee out of a Marlin. A mold close to it may work.

 

[MEHavey]

The Lyman 457193/405gr FN is the standard.

 

[Wis-Harpo]

As in other posts on the subject of 45-70 bullets, I swear by Hornady 350 gr round nose, ahead of IMR3031. What I used to load the 45-70 at would be over pressure for your rifle. I used to push the 350 gr bullet at 2100 fps. One time with some friends at a dump, I shot through a fridge compressor, it also went through a metal round bed frame, and a pile of tin roofing and kept on going. That was in the 1980"s, and now I load the 350 grainer at 1600 fps with IMR3031 for great accuracy and less kick. FYI my Siamese Mauser action rifle has a 26 inch barrel and weighs 10 1/2 pounds that soaks up some of the rearward energy. My rifle would not shoot anything lighter than 350 grains with any accuracy.

 

[wiiawiwb]

Wouldn't a flat-nose profile be better than a round nose for penetration in a large, densely-muscled animal?

 

[ericuda]

MBC sells 405 rnfp cast bullets for $42 for 200. Shooting them over a good charge of 3031 gets me in the 1500 to 1600 fps out of my gg. I doubt that you could do much better than a 405 grain slug.

 

[gunsnrods]

Watch those Hornady LeverEvolution brass! They are shortened for the bullet they use, the case is too short if you want to reload your cast bullets. You'll be OK if that's the only brass you have, it's a real problem if they are mixed in with std length brass. Your crimps will be messed up with various length brass.

 

[flashhole]

I have a Marlin Guide Gun 45-70. Bought it new in 1998, mine has the factory ported barrel.

I've put more than 1000 rounds through it and tried many different bullets. Favorites are the Hornady 350 grain RN and my own 340 grain bullets I cast from a Lee mold. With the former I use H4895 powder and drive them ~1960 fps. The later is loaded down and I use Varget. It pushes them out the barrel ~1350 fps. Any faster and I chance leading the barrel. Both make short work of deer sized game but there is a cool factor when you harvest an animal with a bullet you made yourself.

WRT the bigger game, I would pay a lot more attention to bullet weight than lead hardness. It takes a lot to stop a 405 grain slug even at modest velocities. I have some 500 grain bullets over a stout charge of RL-7 that are not fun to shoot but I can't imagine anything that could stand up to them.

 

[kayak-man]

Thanks for all the input guys!

It sounds like something in the 405 grain ballpark with a flat nose is the way to go for the lower 48, with the option of something heavier if I really want to put the hurt on something, and that as long as I stay in the Americas, the hardness of the lead isn't a huge factor, right?

Gunsnrods, I had heard that the hornady brass was shorter than spec, but I assumed that it would screw with the case capacity enough that it wouldn't be worth trying to reload it with cast bullets. Do y'all think annealing the brass would help with longevity in the GG, or is more of a benefit for higher pressure otter neck cartridges?

 

[MEHavey]

A. Annealing never hurts, but:
1. Should be done under [750⁰] Tempilaq-control to really get any real benefit.

2. Is best used if/when the load is BP. Otherwise, normal/everyday factor brass is fine

B. Get/use regular 45-70 brass, not the foreshortened Hornady brass.

 

[flashhole]

Be aware the Factory loads that use 405 grain bullets are pretty mild and can be used in less strong actions like Trapdoor rifles. The Guide Gun action can tolerate stouter loads and stouter loads still with actions like the Ruger #1. Current load manuals generally list separate power ranges for the three actions.

Alloy does make a difference and you want something akin to Lyman's alloy. Too soft and you will get significant leading in the barrel. Too hard and the bullet may not obturate properly.

An option might be to buy some Garrett loads to see what you want before you jump into casting and loading your own. There is a lot to learn and you have only scratched the surface.

 

[FROGO207]

Along with Missouri Bullet 405 LRNFP you could get some 365 and 510 LRNFPGC from Matts Bullets to try. I like the 510's in my Handi Rifle. They are softer so good expantion and the gas check keeps the leading at bay. It is like hitting a whitetail with a sledge hammer. If you like them get a similar mold and the Lee push through sizer to install the gas checks.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree, there is nothing in North America that can't be stopped with a 405gr Cast Bullet out if a 45-70 @1400 fps or higher. That round has been taking very heavy game for over century.

My current 45-70 ammo us made with AA5744 but nothing wrong with RL7, 4198, 3931 and a few others. AA5744 replacing IMR4198 has been very accurate for me. I push a 405gr Cast Bullet from the MBC @1450fps. I can use the same load in my Trapdoor and levergun.

 

[Dog Soldier]

I have one of the Limited Edition Browning 1886 SRC. I cast many types of .459 bullets. My favorite is the 350 grs. lead cast bullet. I load my rounds similar to the Winchester Express ammunition

.http://www.realguns.com/archives/117.htm

 

[flashhole]

You might something of use here ... http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

 

[kayak-man]

Wow guys, that is a lot of great info! I will check out the bear tooth bullets tech notes when I have a chance a little later today.

I will do some more reading on the subject of casting in general.

Thanks,
Chris J

 

[loose noose]

I used a 405 grain hand cast bullet, with a gas check coming out of my Ballard type rifling Marlin 1895 rifle at right at 2000fps, The bullet cast is a Rapine mold, (not sure if they are still in business), however my rifle from a rest could hold MOA using 3 rounds. I do believe that particular round placed 2 tons of energy at the muzzle. Granted the recoil was very stout to say the least, but I do believe it could put down any mammal on the planet with ease. I'm sure your Guide gun will have less velocity due to the shorter barrel, however, what type of rifling does your Guide gun have? Incidentally I had planned on going to Alaska on a Kodiak Bear hunt, that never developed unfortunately.

 

[MEHavey]

If you're getting 405gr/2,000 fps out of a `95 Marlin, you are bumped up/past Ruger#1 (40kCUP) working pressures.
Can you tell us the powder type?

 

[flashhole]

And how long the barrel is. My 350 grain bullet loads at 1960 fps are pretty stout but pale in comparison to that.

 

[dickydalton]

405 grain Cast Performance WLFNGC bullets at 1800 FPS are as stout as I shoot in my 1895 ported GG. And, I don't shoot them very much. I have 400 grain Speer jacked soft points at 1600 FPS but actually carried some factory Remington 405s for deer this year. I tried to light load some MBC 405s for practice and used 14 grains of Unique like I had seen on the Marlin forum but a lot of them key-holed.

 

[highlander 5]

400 gr bullets may be the limit in your Marlin,a buddy has the cowboy version I accidentally loaded some of my 500 gr 45/70s into it and they jammed up the rifle.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Too long an OAL can be a problem with the heavier bullets, that might be why it jammed
I have been experimenting with some of those shorter Hornady cases loading black powder. The shorter case paired with the longer/heavier 500 grain bullet allows me to use lighter loads of 2f but I get good compression of the powder in the case. Getting decent accuracy in the trapdoor carbine with them too.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I used a 405 grain hand cast bullet, with a gas check coming out of my Ballard type rifling Marlin 1895 rifle at right at 2000fps, The bullet cast is a Rapine mold, (not sure if they are still in business), however my rifle from a rest could hold MOA using 3 rounds. I do believe that particular round placed 2 tons of energy at the muzzle. Granted the recoil was very stout to say the least, but I do believe it could put down any mammal on the planet with ease. I'm sure your Guide gun will have less velocity due to the shorter barrel, however, what type of rifling does your Guide gun have? Incidentally I had planned on going to Alaska on a Kodiak Bear hunt, that never developed unfortunately.

Why in the world would you want to punish yourself with a load like that when the same bullet @1500fps will do the same job? A bullet that heavy and wide does not need to be pushed to 2000fps to take game and your shoulder will agree.

A .459" 405gr bullet @2000fps will generate 3596 ft/lbs of energy and 41.4 ft/lbs of recoil, very hard on you...
A .459" 405gr bullet @1500fps will generate 2023 ft/lbs of energy and 26.2 ft/lbs of recoil, much better on you and plenty of power at the muzzle.

 

[RecoilRob]

I use the RCBS 405 GC mould: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/63...er-458-diameter-405-grain-flat-nose-gas-check in the Guide Gun and it shoots very nicely. Can load from pleasant recoiling mild velocity (which would still thump about anything that lives) to a full case of RL-7 which begins to get into the 'hurts' category after a few rounds. It's fun to let others shoot the rifle with the heavy loads as it's an impressively powerful little package. The RCBS bullet holds a lot of lube and with the gas check no leading at all no matter how hard they're driven. These weigh out about 425 grains lubed and ready to shoot with the last batch of lead I mixed up. (range scrap with a bit of lynotype) Loaded to the crimping groove they feed perfectly through the 1895.