45-70 effectiveness at 200yards?

[someguy2800]

Let's not get carried away. The 45-70 was the original poodle shooter with the military going from 58 caliber down to 45. Traditional black powder loads basically reproduce 45 caliber muzzle loader performance in a faster to load rifle. And that is the minimum legal caliber for deer in most states. Not legal for larger game in most states, certainly inadequate on horses.

It was designed to kill 140 lb Native Americans during the Indian wars. It was not very successful and was quickly dropped. As a hunting cartridge it was considered under powered for anything larger than deer during the 1870's and 1880's and with good reason. It was never widely used as a buffalo gun for several reasons. Mainly because most of the buffalo were dead 10 years before it was introduced. And laws were passed in 1874, one year after the 45-70 was introduced, banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left.

By the 1890's it was all but dead. From the 1890's until 1973 the 45-70 was a dormant cartridge that only saw use among a small group of target shooters who competed in black powder cartridge shooting matches. Hunters dropped it like a rock, rounds like 30-30, 6.5X55, 7X57 and the 30-06 were readily available by the early 1900's. Some as early as 1891.

In 1973 Marlin re-introduced their 1895 rifle chambered in 45-70 to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the 45-70 with lots of hyperbole and colorful advertising hinting that the cartridge had a lot more history than it really did. I had one of the originals back in the mid 1970's and a couple more over the years so I have some experience with 45-70 and Marlin lever guns.

Of course this is about the same time that modern loads that were safe to fire in the Marlin were introduced. Those loads bring the 45-70 into another league. But at the cost of what I consider excessive recoil. Black powder level loads are very tolerable, no more than 30-06. But many of the hotter modern loads exceed 375 H&H mag recoil and are right on the heels of 458 WM recoil. And in reality they don't kill anything a 30-06 won't kill just as well with 1/3 the recoil.

The short version is that traditional 45-70 loads are quite weak and the round wasn't well thought of during its military service during the 1870's and 1880's. With modern loads it will kill any animal that walks within a limited range. But during the 80 years the 45-70 was dormant and sleeping rounds like 6.5X55, 7X57, and 30-06 proved they would also kill any animal that walks. And do it at much longer ranges with a fraction of the recoil.

Can a 45-70 hit and kill a deer at 200 or even 300 yards. Yes, but that is hardly impressive, we have people killing elk at 1/2 mile with 243's.

This is the first time I've heard that a 405 grain lead slug is only suitable for shooting poodles. How many of them have to be line up end to end?

 

[Iggy]

I shot an antelope standing broadside to me at 400 measured yards.


Black powder backed 405 bullet knocked the critter flat. You could eat the meat an inch from the hole.

I have also killed Elk, Mule Deer, and numerous other critters with the 45-70. Never needed more than one shot.

 

[loose noose]

I've got a steel over-sized popper (4'X2'.5''X 2') that I've been able to hit 6/10 using a 405grn. 70grns of black powder 3f, at 500 yards, in which it puts a crater in hardened steel at that range, using a Sharps rifle. I've also did nearly as well using a Springfield Trapdoor rifle/musket.. I don't see why using the proper load why you couldn't anchor a large mule deer or elk using the 45-70.

 

[Hunter86004]

Some of you might find this article at: http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TDNews.html interesting about how the 45-70 was born.

I was somewhat surprised that a 405 grain hard cast bullet over 70 grains of black powder would penetrate 8.8 inches of pine boards at 500 yards.

Hitting your target may be a challenge, but it certainly doesn't qualify as a 'mouse gun'.

 

[Nature Boy]

It’s interesting to see the range of opinions expressed.

On one end of the spectrum: the 45-70 has the trajectory and lethality of a slow piched soft ball

On the other end: when I shoot this cannon it rattles windows in the next town over and leaves an impact crater you could hide a pick up truck in

 

[Nature Boy]

Taking the OPs data and plugging it into Ballistics AE app, if you zeroed at 250 yards you'd be:

1. 100 yrds - 10" high - 1723 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone
2. 200 yrds - 8" high - 1218 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone
3. 300 yrds - 13" low - 880 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone, I'd probably hold a little high though

 

[someguy2800]

Taking the OPs data and plugging it into Ballistics AE app, if you zeroed at 250 yards you'd be:

1. 100 yrds - 10" high - 1723 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone
2. 200 yrds - 8" high - 1218 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone
3. 300 yrds - 13" low - 880 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone, I'd probably hold a little high though

Perhaps if your hunting black angus. If we are talking about Ohio whitetail 10 inches high would be grazing their back or a spine shot, and 13" low would be in the dirt. Your going to need to range if your going to be shooting a 45-70 at those kind of distances.

 

[Nature Boy]

Perhaps if your hunting black angus

@LoonWulf is the only one I know that hunts cows

 

[Bushpilot]

Let's not get carried away. The 45-70 was the original poodle shooter with the military going from 58 caliber down to 45. Traditional black powder loads basically reproduce 45 caliber muzzle loader performance in a faster to load rifle. And that is the minimum legal caliber for deer in most states. Not legal for larger game in most states, certainly inadequate on horses.

It was designed to kill 140 lb Native Americans during the Indian wars. It was not very successful and was quickly dropped. As a hunting cartridge it was considered under powered for anything larger than deer during the 1870's and 1880's and with good reason. It was never widely used as a buffalo gun for several reasons. Mainly because most of the buffalo were dead 10 years before it was introduced. And laws were passed in 1874, one year after the 45-70 was introduced, banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left.

By the 1890's it was all but dead. From the 1890's until 1973 the 45-70 was a dormant cartridge that only saw use among a small group of target shooters who competed in black powder cartridge shooting matches. Hunters dropped it like a rock, rounds like 30-30, 6.5X55, 7X57 and the 30-06 were readily available by the early 1900's. Some as early as 1891.

I disagree with the above..

* The 45-70 is a "Poodle shooter," Hardly....

* Most of the laws you're referring to were already on the books when round ball was still the most common muzzle loader projectile. There is a Big difference between a 128 gr, .440 round ball and a 405 gr, 45 cal bullet.

* "Inadequate" on cavalry horses, I think most would doubt that.... Just consider all of the really large game that is routinely shot with 44 mag handguns with smaller and lighter bullets than a 45-70 with less Sectional Density..

* The 45-70 was NOT designed to kill "140 lb Native Americans." It was chosen by it's long range accuracy. An ordnance board compared various cartridges in 40, 42 and 45 caliber, whose bullets weighed from 350 to 450 gr., along with barrels of various bore diameters and rifling types. The "winner" was chosen by the number of hits out of 20 shots on a target at 500 yards. Barrel #16 with ammunition #58 won, the 45-70-405. The results were then submitted to the Terry Board which chose an action type to go with the cartridge...

* Failures during the Indian Wars were largely attributable to the shortcomings of the single shot rifle and copper cased ammunition and NOT due to any imagined ballistic inadequacy.

* The 45-70 was NOT "all but dead by the 1890's." The 45-70 was just chambered in a Winchester lever action rifle for the first time in 1886... Although militarily outclassed by the Spanish Mausers and American Krags, the 45-70 was nevertheless used in great numbers during both the Spanish American War (1898) and the Philippine Insurrection (1899). Many state militias were equipped with the 45-70 well into the 1900's. When Springfield Armory sold off 45-70 Trapdoor Springfield parts companies sprang up that built completed rifles from the parts and sold them to civilians. Many new sporting rifles were still being chambered for the 45-70 until the 1930's, the Depression years.

As a hunting cartridge it was considered under powered for anything larger than deer during the 1870's and 1880's and with good reason.

The 44/40 was a typical deer rifle cartridge during the 1870's and 1880's, while the 45-70 was considered to be a powerful big game cartridge and was quite popular. In the late 1870's and 1880's there was some thing of a race by companies to produce a lever action large enough to handle the 45-70 and other large cartridges.... Marlin was the first in 1881. Winchester followed suit in 1886...

Hunters dropped it like a rock, rounds like 30-30, 6.5X55, 7X57 and the 30-06 were readily available by the early 1900's. Some as early as 1891.

Some were readily available in the US, others not so much... I would like to know where you referenced any information on the availability and use of the 6.5x55 in the US during the early 20th Century. I doubt that many in the US were even thinking about the 6.5x55 at this time, much less buying it..

 

[Varminterror]

Taking the OPs data and plugging it into Ballistics AE app, if you zeroed at 250 yards you'd be:

1. 100 yrds - 10" high - 1723 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone
2. 200 yrds - 8" high - 1218 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone
3. 300 yrds - 13" low - 880 ft lbs of energy - still in the vital zone, I'd probably hold a little high though

I’m with @someguy2800 on this one - even hunting bison a few times in my life, and water buffalo, I’ve never hunted anything which I felt had a 23” tall vital zone. Pretty rare to find a whitetail doe which is even 20” from backline to belly. I’m on board for determining a responsible MPBR and holding dead on, but 300 isn’t a realistic MPBR even for most hyper velocity bottleneck cartridges, let alone the ol’ punkin’ chunker...

I’ll admit, my 45-70 is one of my few rifles/handguns which I work my DOPE in inches. For the FTX 325 with a BC G1 of .230, leaving my Guide Gun at 1795fps average, I have 5, 10, 15, 22, and 30” of drop at every 25yrd interval from 150 to 250. Using a 1/4 IPHY scope, it’s pretty easy to remember those corrections, either held or dialed.

 

[Terminatorret]

Check out this website:

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.45-70+U.S+Government.html

Very good data tables showing 5 different loads (down at the bottom of the article). Very interesting "Suggested sight settings and bullet paths" table for the 5 different rounds.

 

[Nature Boy]

@Varminterror and @someguy2800 are correct and I was wrong, unless you're hunting giraffe

There's too much drop for a point blank range that spans 100-300 yards

 

[gundoc1]

My 86 in 45-70 rings the gong more often than not out to 300yds

 

[SamT1]

I used to have one in a marlin 1895. Brother wrecked a 4 wheeler chasing pigs with it slung Over his shoulder and it never worked right again.

You could gut shoot hogs with it and they wouldnt go more than a few yards. It would definetly ruin some meat with the ftx bullets I loaded at max velocity.

I prefer to plink with the pistol caliber big bores, 480 ruger and 44 mag since they aren’t powder hogs and shoulder bruisers. And do my game killing with a 308.

 

[ScrapMetalSlug]

I think the 45-70 is effective on game as far as you can make good hits. Hunting deer in the east it is great. Hunting the thick woods of NY, OH, KY, and TN the first 3 deer I ever killed were probably an average distance of 50 yards, with the longest shot being about 75.

What makes it challenging at distance is the trajectory, not killing power. Hunting across farm fields or out west in the Rockies, it makes it difficult unless you are very good at estimating ranges. I have a marlin 1895 in 45-70 and like it a lot, but with a chance of long shots I prefer something else.

I like my 30-06 with a MPBR of 268 yards. I know if I am at 300 yards hold a little high, much further than that I don’t really shoot at game and can sneak closer usually.

If someone is good at range estimation, has a scope or venier sights, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be fun and work well.

 

[JeffG]

@LoonWulf is the only one I know that hunts cows

Seriously?

 

[oldsnow]

Never owned a 45X70 but have been hunting white tales exclusively with a 50 caliber muzzleloader for the last 25 years and have killed deer out to 280 yds. Lots of shooting and practicing and learning the trajectory of your rifle is the key to killing anything at long range.

 

[schotzfyred]

Just got my 1873 yesterday. Thanks for the info. I have a Guide Gun. At the range I can hit a 1 foot square metal target at 200 yards at will with cowboy loads or modern loadings. No issues with taking a 200 yard shot as long as you know where you are aiming. But isn't that true for everything? All bullets fall at the same speed. A slower bullets get down range at a slower pace for it falls more per yard. Doesn't matter as long as you know what your aiming at. You do have to consider the time it take for the bullet to get there.

Sir,
I don't shoot or know anything about the Cowboy shoots, but what is considered a "cowboy" load in the 45-70? Black powder only? Low velocity?

 

[dh1633pm]

For me a cowboy load would be the low powered loads used in the trap doors. Be it black power or smokeless.

 

[schotzfyred]

Thank you. So then, the "plinking" load I use of 11gr Unique pushing a 350gr cast at ~ 1000fps would be considered "cowboy"?

 

[someguy2800]

Thank you. So then, the "plinking" load I use of 11gr Unique pushing a 350gr cast at ~ 1000fps would be considered "cowboy"?

Yeah, the term comes from cowboy action shooting events where the rules state that you can only shoot light lead bullet loads. The intent is to replicate what black powder velocities were, and for safety because they are shooting steel targets. I think the rules are that revolver loads have to be under 1000 fps and rifles under 1400 fps. So yes, your "plinking load" would also be considered a "cowboy load". I shoot trailboss in mine with a 350 grain cast at 1250.

I'm not a cowboy action shooter so if I'm wrong someone please correct me.

 

[eastbank]

ruger # 3 with a 300gr Hornady with 52grs H-4198, dead nuts 100 yards, 10" low at 200 yards with over 1300 fpe. not a hard shot for a 200 yard hit if you take the time to know your rifle and scope.

 

[Snidely70431]

For a while when they were new I had an 1895G and shot it alongside my AR15 friends. 0-300 yards, positions, rapid engagement, etc. Only really stopped because I have weirdly fat thumbs and the loading gate was just so not working for me.

.45/70 has a perfectly accountable drop if you know you dope and can range well, to those ranges. But you can't go further than that. I mean, everyone knows now that you have to have a 6.5CM to get past 600. 308 is obsolete and .45-70-405? I mean... oh:

View attachment 799476

Sure, it's a lot of drop, but how about keeping every shot on a 36" plate at 1,000 yards? (Note, it's radius, not diameter so double that for "group size" as we use it today).

http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html



Now to power? How about penetrating several inches of wood, and then burying itself in sand: at 3,000 yards. Not Three Hundred, Three Thousand.
View attachment 799477

There's a lot of better ways to get a bullet out there, and yes we've made some bad choices of service calibers. The
.45-70 is old, but if you know what it does, it will absolutely do that, every damned time.

More charts at that link including exterior ballistics. A fun read for the .45 Government fans.

I'd have a .45-70 upper for my SBR'd AR if they weren't rimmed so hopeless to feed in a self loader. I do have a .300 BLK, but it just isn't the same.

458 SOCOM
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
.458 SOCOM

55gr 5.56 NATO vs 500gr .458 SOCOM
Type Rifle
Place of origin United States
Production history
Designer Teppo Jutsu LLC
Specifications
Parent case .50 Action Express
Bullet diameter 11.63 mm (0.458 in)
Neck diameter 12.32 mm (0.485 in)
Shoulder diameter 13.49 mm (0.531 in)
Base diameter 13.74 mm (0.541 in)
Rim diameter 12.01 mm (0.473 in)
Rim thickness 1.04 mm (0.041 in)
Case length 40.00 mm (1.575 in)
Overall length 57.40 mm (2.260 in)
Rifling twist 1 in 14" (most common) or 18"
Primer type Large Pistol
Maximum pressure 35,000psi
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
250 gr (16 g) SP 655 m/s (2,150 ft/s) 3,478 J (2,565 ft⋅lbf)
300 gr (19 g) HP 580 m/s (1,900 ft/s) 3,261 J (2,405 ft⋅lbf)
325 gr (21 g) FTX 566 m/s (1,860 ft/s) 3,384 J (2,496 ft⋅lbf)
405 gr (26 g) JFP 489 m/s (1,600 ft/s) 3,148 J (2,322 ft⋅lbf)
600 gr (39 g) RN 304.8 m/s (1,000 ft/s) 1,811 J (1,336 ft⋅lbf)
The .458 SOCOM (11.63×40mm) is a moderately large round designed for a specialized upper receiver that can be mounted on any AR-15 pattern lower receiver. The 300-grain (19 g) round offers a supersonic muzzle velocity of 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) and 2,405 ft⋅lbf (3,261 J),[1] similar to a light .45-70 but with a much smaller case.

 

[fpgt72]

458 SOCOM
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
.458 SOCOM
View attachment 812039
55gr 5.56 NATO vs 500gr .458 SOCOM
Type Rifle
Place of origin United States
Production history
Designer Teppo Jutsu LLC
Specifications
Parent case .50 Action Express
Bullet diameter 11.63 mm (0.458 in)
Neck diameter 12.32 mm (0.485 in)
Shoulder diameter 13.49 mm (0.531 in)
Base diameter 13.74 mm (0.541 in)
Rim diameter 12.01 mm (0.473 in)
Rim thickness 1.04 mm (0.041 in)
Case length 40.00 mm (1.575 in)
Overall length 57.40 mm (2.260 in)
Rifling twist 1 in 14" (most common) or 18"
Primer type Large Pistol
Maximum pressure 35,000psi
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
250 gr (16 g) SP 655 m/s (2,150 ft/s) 3,478 J (2,565 ft⋅lbf)
300 gr (19 g) HP 580 m/s (1,900 ft/s) 3,261 J (2,405 ft⋅lbf)
325 gr (21 g) FTX 566 m/s (1,860 ft/s) 3,384 J (2,496 ft⋅lbf)
405 gr (26 g) JFP 489 m/s (1,600 ft/s) 3,148 J (2,322 ft⋅lbf)
600 gr (39 g) RN 304.8 m/s (1,000 ft/s) 1,811 J (1,336 ft⋅lbf)
The .458 SOCOM (11.63×40mm) is a moderately large round designed for a specialized upper receiver that can be mounted on any AR-15 pattern lower receiver. The 300-grain (19 g) round offers a supersonic muzzle velocity of 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) and 2,405 ft⋅lbf (3,261 J),[1] similar to a light .45-70 but with a much smaller case.

More stupid stuff to turn black rifles into the wonder gun.

 

[Axis II]

Seriously?

View attachment 801698

what's the story behind this Jeff? Farm bull that needed put down?