.45-70 reloading, what else do I need?

[MilsurpShooter]

I've got a bag of Winchester brass, got the bullet mold, the lead ingots, the lead melter, a set of Lee powder dippers and the Lee graduated powder dispenser, a 3 die set for 45-70, the Lee press, the powder scale, I'm running over in my head what else I will need and here's what it looks like so far

Powder
Primers
Caliper for measurement

I'm probably going to need to pick up a re-sizing die too for the lead cast bullets. Is there anything I'm forgetting? I keep thinking I have everything then when I sit and think it over I realise I'm missing something.

Thanks in advance guys

 

[Shoney]

What weapon are you using??????

Which mold??

It will make a big difference in the loads you will use.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

It's a family gun passed down through the years since we found it in the attic, 1884 or 1887 Springfield Trapdoor. Can't recall the exact year, will check when I get home from work. Not planning on a major reloading operation. Just enough to take to the range and pop 4 or 5 loose every so often. It's been in our family a long time, cleared by a gunsmith, as long as the load pressure was kept under 1,000. Mainly what it is, family wants to take it to the range and shoot it a few times. We've sat and looked at it for a long time but now that we found out it's safe to fire we wanna give her a go. I want to fire one or two off from the pure historical aspect of the rifle.

Mold is a Lee dual cavity, 450 grain IIRC, again, will have to check that when I get home

 

[Eric F]

In this case I would strongly urge you to keep the loadings traditional and use a black powder load for this gun. It is very easy to over charge with smokeless powder in a large case with lee dippers unless you weigh every spoon full. Dont forget if you do go with black powder it should be measured in grains-volume not grains weight. You will also need bullet lube of some sort. And just one last thing slug your barrel if its not shot out a 458 dia bullet in 405 grain(weight) is the correct bullet to use with 70 gr volume black powder ffg and use an over powder greased felt wad(thin)

 

[snuffy]

Your mold is most likely 405 grain. You would need a .457 sizer, Lee makes one that fits right in your press, it also comes with LLA, lee liquid alox. That will get you sized, lubed boolits, ready to load.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=457341&t=11082005

As for powder, I would recommend either IMR 4759,(if you can find some), or accurate arms XMP-5744. Both are made for reduced loading in larger rifle cases, they are very bulky for their weight. Trail boss is another good one, but made mostly for cowboy loads in revolver loads. Not much data around for it in 45-70. If the gunsmith meant 1,000 pounds of pressure, you may as well forget about loading anything in it. If he meant 1,000 FPS, then a small reduction from the starting load using IMR 4759 will get you there.

In any case, be ready to have some fun! An original springfield rifle will gobble those loads without much in the way of recoil. Also the SMACK of the boolit hitting the paper is most satisfying, be sure to wait for it!

 

[Bad Flynch]

If you really have a Trapdoor, then the first thing to do is get it checked by a competent gunsmith. These things are ~120 years old now: many are in disrepair, some have crystallized metal or rusted weak spots, and others are just fine.

You should reload using black powder and very much need to get the book on Trapdoor rifles by JS & Pat Wolfe. That is the bible and the real way to make them shoot ( www.the45-70book.com ). This thing is the hots. Shoot Goex BP, or another mid-line powder such as Scheutzen and, as previously suggested, measure your powder by volume. The same people that have the book have special loading dies made for Trapdoor rifles that enable your loads to shoot the best, including the very much needed powder compression die and a special seating and crimping die. You can start out with a little as 55 grains or so of BP and that was the old calvalry carbine load (.45-55-405) that the Army settled on. There is no need to shoot heavy loads if they are made correctly.

When you cast bullets, cast them soft. The alloy should approximate 1:20 Tin:Lead and the bullets should be left large and 0.460+ is about right. At any rate, shoot the biggest bullet that you can get a round, loaded with, to chamber. The book recommends a hollow-based bullet for the 405 grain for best accuracy and details the reasons why. Use a soft, gooey lube meant for BP use and do not use any alox or hard-wax lubes.

I have an original Trapdoor, but it is a late one, an 1888, and in really good shape. It is a joy to shoot. It has a Buffington rear sight, a hooded front sight, and a self-contained round bayonet.

 

[Eric F]

warning!!!!
"You can start out with a little as 55 grains or so of BP "
Either bad or incomplete advice here........bp loads no matter if it be cap and ball, muzzle loading ,or metalic cartrage require the bullet to be seated on and slightly compress the powder charge. Any free space may result in a ruined gun and/or person. If you down load you must make the diffrence up with filler. Some folks use corn meal, flour, or cream of wheats(not really)there are also some comercial filler options. Please by all means if you do not know or are unsure of what you are doing it is worth the time to find a book on bp metalic cartrage loading. I found one years ago in a book store that is why I started loading 45/70 with bp.

 

[snuffy]

Warning: If you are going to shoot black powder, you WILL HAVE TO CLEAN! I mean thoroughly clean every trace of powder fouling out of the barrel, chamber and surrounding metal as soon as you get home. THEN you will have to take along a bucket or other container of soapy water to toss the spent shells into, then clean and dry them as soon as you get home. Don't let some uninformed jamoke tell you that pyrodex is the same as smokeless power, as concerning cleaning goes. It is actually MORE corrosive than black. most others are too, but the 777 is less than any others.

There is NOTHING wrong with smokeless loads in the trapdoor. Period. The clean up is a simple nitro solvent with patches and a bore brush. Accuracy will be better because as the black powder fouls out the bore, the accuracy falls to pieces.

It's been in our family a long time, cleared by a gunsmith, as long as the load pressure was kept under 1,000.

If you really have a Trapdoor, then the first thing to do is get it checked by a competent gunsmith. These things are ~120 years old now: many are in disrepair, some have crystallized metal or rusted weak spots, and others are just fine.

Bad flynch, it looks like he has done just that.

 

[Eric F]

my apologies I did indeed forget to mention the cleanup. As stated there are some bp synthetics out there some are better than others I used clean shot the most(after I tried bp 777 and pyrodex. And there is nothing wrong with smokeless execpt it is easy to over charge with the dippers if you dont weigh every load.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Looks like just when I think I've got everything down pat and semi-confident to start this project I find a new tidbit of information or a new piece I hadn't found in the books that just blasts that confidence all to heck. Now that I'm home (darn co-workers calling out and leaving me on a double shift) I can write down exactly what's on the tag here that the gunsmith so thoughtfully supplied with the rifle:

1884 Springfield Trapdoor
SN: 252---

.45-70 Rimmed Straight Case
.457 Bullet Diameter
.475 Neck Diameter
.500 Base Diameter
.600 Rim Diameter
2.10 case length
2.70 Cartridge Length
18-22 twist

405 Grain Lead Bullet over 70 Grains Black Powder
1125 FPS
1409 Muzzle Energy
Do not exceed 1125 FPS

I'm going to see if I can't borrow the digital camera from work and snap a few shots of it to throw up here. As I was driving home tonight I also had another thought.. Need to find a range that allows blackpowder lol. Aww well

Again, thank you everyone, the help is much appreciated

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Took me long enough (power outage in my building, running on 30 minutes sleep in crisis management. But it's calmed down now lol)

 

[snuffy]

Wow, that's quite a piece! It looks to me to be a calvary model, does it have a saddle ring on it? It's definitely a shorter version of the 1873 Springfield. Made shorter to go in a scabbard on a horse. No matter, just an observation.

You don't want full-house loads in that carbine sized rifle, it would be a handful because it's lighter. I have a H&R calvary model replica 45-70, it's only comfortable with light loads. I never tried it with black powder, but did shoot a few pyrodex CTG loads in it. The loads your gunsmith recommended should be ok, black powder shoots with more of a push than a smack in the shoulder.

Eric f is completely correct in that you can't leave any air space in a black powder loading of any kind. Any airspace treats the bullet like a bore obstruction, there will be a ring or in extreme cases a bulge right behind the bullet.

 

[Bad Flynch]

Jay,

Disregard what the newbie wrote about the 55 grain load; it's sort of a knee-jerk reaction. The cavalry adoped that load (55 grain) for your carbine because the full powered load (.45-70-500) had too much recoil for the average guy and the troops complained. While it is true that leaving air space in the cartridge is generally not good, I really doubt that the Frankford Arsenal would have loaded 55 grains it it left air space. In any event, you will be using an over-powder wad of about 1/32" that will allow you to compress the powder so that the bullet seats firmly on top of the powder/wad column.

Load your bullets at 0.460+" if you can get them and they will chamber. The reason for this large size is that the groove diameters of the Trapdoors frequently ran that large, with some being 0.462". The large groove diameter is also the reason, partly, that the original bullets were hollow-based. The 55 grain load did not give enough pressure to fully bump-up a ligher, flat-based, (405 grain) bullet to full groove diameter, and that gave poor accuracy. The skirts on a soft, hollow-based bullet would expand and compensate for the diameter discrepancy.

Remember that Black Powder, and this cartridge's powder as a matter of history, were measured by (water) volume grains. That means that you can buy a 55 grain or 60 grain (or whatever) volume BP measure and pour your powder. You do not have to weigh it. Lee dippers, when supplied in the set, are measured in cc increments and there is a rough approximation of BP measure on the back of their sliding powder calculator that comes in the set. You could also simply order a volume measure from Track of the Wolf or some other black powder supply house. You can make your own volume BP measure by making a dipper that will dip out 70 (or whatever you want) weighed grains of water and then using that for measuring the powder.

A powder that approximates 1&1/2Fg would duplicate what the Frankford Arsenal loaded originally and had such good luck with. You can mix 1Fg and 2Fg, in equal parts, to get that. Or you can simply order Goex' fancy equivalent, called "Cartridge." The most elegant powder, and arguably the best, would be Swiss 1.5Fg.

Most of all, have fun. Get hooked one shooting your Trapdoor; it's a fun gun.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Good to know, and thanks again everyone. No Saddle Ring. The history behind the gun is as follows. It was given to my great, great, great (forget how many greats) grandfather. We have a letter written in the late 1800s' from President McKinley, congratulating him on his promotion to Post Master General of my town, awarding him with this rifle as recognition of his achievements and dedication to duty. I've been trying to track down more history on that and the rifle, but not having much luck.

Anyhow, Flynch, thanks for that information as well. I'm definately going to sit down and re-read all my books, take more notes. I want to shoot this but I'll only do it with reloads that I'm at pretty comfortable with. Gonna take alot more reading I think lol.

Thanks again everyone, and I'll probably have at least one or two more annoying questions for you lol

 

[Jim Watson]

cleared by a gunsmith, as long as the load pressure was kept under 1,000.

1,000 what?
Black powder chamber pressures run from 12,000 to 20,000 psi.

Edit to add: Are you at least somewhat experienced in handloading? If not, I don't think I would want to buy a bunch of equipment and learn on a family heirloom.

I would use mild appropriate smokeless loads (with cast lead, not jacketed) bullets rather than imitation black. I would really prefer real black. It is not as hard to clean up from as most people make out. I clean my Highwall with Windex on the range and reclean with M-Pro 7 at home, oil with Ballistol. Less work than getting the copper fouling out of my .308. You do have to wash the brass, though.

The Wolf book covers black and smokeless ammunition and will be a big help.


The gun illustrated looks a bit odd. The SN is in the 1879 range but the breech is marked Model 1884. The barrel length, stock length, and band placement do not match anything I have a picture or description of.

Don't know why you would give a postmaster a rifle, but a presidential letter identifying the gun would be a huge piece of provenance.

 

[Bad Flynch]

Jay,

Something I forgot to include in my last post:

In the M1873 carbine load, the Frankford Arsenal used fiber wads for a filler to take up the extra space. You can do that if you wish, but it is tecnically difficult these days because the proper fillers are hard to get. You could get a wad punch and make your own, but...

I customarily use instant grits for a filler in my BP loads. Some use Cream O' Wheat, some use oatmeal, and some use other stuff. Grits are easier to use than the wads. Some materials seem to absorb moisture, so avoid them. The amount of compression was stated to be 0.3-0.4 inch, but that sems to vary with the type and manufacturer of the powder.

It is necessary to clean your cartridge cases, both inside and out. Many will scrub the inside with the brass equivalent of a test-tube brush. A good vibrating case cleaner with media that will clean the inside is great. At any rate, you can get case wall/head separations if you do not clean the inside of the cases well. What happens is the black powder, when compressed, forms a plug that is ignited at the back end at firing. When ignited at the back end, the plug is moved out of the case and down the barrel, with part of it exiting the barrel unburned. If your case walls are dirty and rough, the plug can grab the case wall and tear it from the case head.

If you are going to shoot the 405 grain bullet, use Lee's M1873 bullet, the hollow-based one. Right now, it is the most correct and the cheapest mould available. A good, soft, black powder lube is a must, too. Do not use any Alox or hard-wax lubes. They will eventually give you trouble.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Yes I am experienced in reloading. But currently I only reload for 7.62x54r (Pu Sniper reproduction, reloads for accuracy) the 8mm mauser cartridge (hunting rounds). I'm going to be reloading soon for the 7.5x55 Swiss.

But these are all calibers I have powder for and reload for with pre-made bullets. The Springfield will be the first I'll load cast bullets and black powder. Just a few differences I'm finding out that's making it a little nerve wracking. With the amount I intend to shoot it I'd say heck with it and pick up a box of the commercial stuff, however the commercial ones I looked at on Midway and Cabelas have the FPS at about 1,300-1,500, guy who looked at the rifle said 1,125 FPS at max so ideally I'd want to keep it below that at 1,000 or 900 just to be on the safe side. I'm going to be picking up some more books this weekend to add to my growing collection. Once I read through them and take more notes hopefully I'll straighten this out in my head a little bit more.

 

[Bad Flynch]

>I'd say heck with it and pick up a box of the commercial stuff, <

Jay,

It's not that bad, really. Just a few things to keep track of, I guess. Besides, it is one heck of a lot of fun, too. When your gunsmith quoted that velocity, he was probably basing that on smokeless powder loads, not black. The original black powder loads were, IIRC, around 1173 FPS, or so. The pressures quoted by the Frankford Arsenal were in the 16500-18500 psi range. Almost any black powder load that you plan to shoot will not exceed that and if the Frankford Arsenal thought it was safe for a Trapdoor, then a Trapdoor that is still in A-1 shape (like yours apparently is) should handle the loads just fine.

BTW, a Trapdoor like yours, in that kind of shape, is worth a pretty penny.

The main thing is to have fun and be safe. Black powder loading and shooting can be a real bundle of fun and very much worth the effort.

 

[lanenebraska]

Trail Boss Range results:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=302042&goto=postid