Go here for some interesting reading, esp. the Lupo Safari's.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
45-70 --> why?
- Thread starter Richard.Howe
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byf43
Member
Richard.Howe said:
Buy it, ummmmmm. . . them.
Something about the cartridge pulled me, too. I've always liked those big 'ole cigar looking cartridges.
I bought my first, a Marlin 1895G. I found one at a gunshow, NIB. GREAT price. Three weeks later, I broke my neck in a freak accident (I won't bore you with details).
After surgery and some healing, a buddy and I went to another local gunshow and lo and behold, there it was. . . . a Marlin 1895 Cowboy!!! That beautiful 26" octagon barrel just screaming for me to pick it up.
Brand new. Gorgeous wood. (Same gunshop.)
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I picked it up. I fondled it. I paid for it. I carried it home.
Have I shot it/them???? Not yet. :banghead:
The doctors have just recently 'cleared' me to shoot whatever I want, as long as it doesn't hurt.
My youngest son wants me to take him to S. Dakota to hunt bison/buffalo in a couple of years. I'm sure I know which rifle/cartridge I'm taking!!!
Buy the .45/70. You'll find a target.
Keith
Carl
Member
If I was to buy a sharp's 74 Quigley rifle, would that be able to handle all modern .45-70 loads?
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Carl - I am not sure and reckon Gewehr could answer that.
If we split loads into three convenient groups - 25,000, 30,000 and 35,000 pressures then the first is trap door, nothing stronger for that gun.
The mid load is for more modern lever type and I suspect this is where your Sharps could fall. The top loads are in essence Ruger #1 category and I am not sure the Sharps will safely handle those..
I may be generalizing too much but that is how I see it broadly. Now waiting for the accurate info!
If we split loads into three convenient groups - 25,000, 30,000 and 35,000 pressures then the first is trap door, nothing stronger for that gun.
The mid load is for more modern lever type and I suspect this is where your Sharps could fall. The top loads are in essence Ruger #1 category and I am not sure the Sharps will safely handle those..
I may be generalizing too much but that is how I see it broadly. Now waiting for the accurate info!
smokemaker
Member
Just something about old fashioned lever guns and big fat cartridges for me. Shoot an 1886 saddle ring carbine or an 1895 guide gun, and it's very different than sitting at the bench with the .308 or .270 or whatever gig you happen to be into. Nostalgia? you bet. Feeling the power that a 45-70 generates, even with modest loads? Absolutely. You can handload it for soft shooting paper punching or full house bear stopping, and very easily I might add.
45-70: why the heck not?
45-70: why the heck not?
chicago jerry
Member
Shiloh claims their rifle will handle the same loads as the Ruger #1.
I have a Marlin 1895 , Shiloh sharps and a Taylor's sharps all used in cowboy aciton shooting. The nice thing is its a great round to reload you can go from light cowboy loads to real thumpers. The first time I took out my Marlin I fired a box of factory loaded rounds and ended up with a very colorful shoulder. My cowboy loads are much more shoulder friendly. I use a 405 bullet with 32 gr. of H4198. It's very accurate and you can shoot them all day long.
I have a Marlin 1895 , Shiloh sharps and a Taylor's sharps all used in cowboy aciton shooting. The nice thing is its a great round to reload you can go from light cowboy loads to real thumpers. The first time I took out my Marlin I fired a box of factory loaded rounds and ended up with a very colorful shoulder. My cowboy loads are much more shoulder friendly. I use a 405 bullet with 32 gr. of H4198. It's very accurate and you can shoot them all day long.
I'm sure somebody with a knack for destructive testing will prove me wrong...
But as far as I know, my modern reproduction of a Sharps Model 1874 is rated for Level II loads, same as the Marlin and Winchester leverguns. You'd think it would be rated for the Level III loads normally reserved for Ruger #1 and Siamese Mausers, but when I compare the two, it's obvious the difference in designs between the Sharps and Ruger #1 preclude the former being rated for the hotter loads. It's just an older design, and a bit looser, at that, regardless of how good a modern steel the Sharps is made of.
Having said that, it really doesn't bother me too much that I can't run Level III loads in the Sharps. Today, my 500gr black powder spitzer loads chronographed just a hair over 1200fps. That means I have at least 1000 foot pounds of bullet energy available to me all the way out to 400 yards for that deer-sized minimum power floor. For punching holes in paper or knocking over steel buffalo silhouettes at 1000 yards, I still have almost 700fps of bullet velocity to get the job done. 700fps doesn't seem like much, until you factor in that it's a 500gr bullet moving at that sedate velocity. I'd wager it'd still hurt like hell to be on the receiving end, even that far out.
Speaking of ouch, I was adjusting the rear vernier tang sight for 200 yards, with the paper at 100 yards, when I shot this group:
But as far as I know, my modern reproduction of a Sharps Model 1874 is rated for Level II loads, same as the Marlin and Winchester leverguns. You'd think it would be rated for the Level III loads normally reserved for Ruger #1 and Siamese Mausers, but when I compare the two, it's obvious the difference in designs between the Sharps and Ruger #1 preclude the former being rated for the hotter loads. It's just an older design, and a bit looser, at that, regardless of how good a modern steel the Sharps is made of.
Having said that, it really doesn't bother me too much that I can't run Level III loads in the Sharps. Today, my 500gr black powder spitzer loads chronographed just a hair over 1200fps. That means I have at least 1000 foot pounds of bullet energy available to me all the way out to 400 yards for that deer-sized minimum power floor. For punching holes in paper or knocking over steel buffalo silhouettes at 1000 yards, I still have almost 700fps of bullet velocity to get the job done. 700fps doesn't seem like much, until you factor in that it's a 500gr bullet moving at that sedate velocity. I'd wager it'd still hurt like hell to be on the receiving end, even that far out.
Speaking of ouch, I was adjusting the rear vernier tang sight for 200 yards, with the paper at 100 yards, when I shot this group:
Last edited:
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Thx for feedback and info Gewehr.
Unfortunately your attached pic - won't display!! (ahhh it has now - some delay!) We have had this happen recently and as yet don't know why it happens - darned annoying.
Re my post #25 tho - can you give me info re those bullets in your pic?
That group is well OK
Unfortunately your attached pic - won't display!! (ahhh it has now - some delay!) We have had this happen recently and as yet don't know why it happens - darned annoying.
Re my post #25 tho - can you give me info re those bullets in your pic?
That group is well OK
Regarding the bullets...
From right to left, the two right-most bullets are custom swaged 500gr spitzers from a Mr. Marcel Lacelle in Canada. He's one of the leading 1000 yard black powder cartridge shooters in that country, and developed those bullets as part of his competition goals. He swages them from lead wire, then turns the lube grooves on a lathe. The copper nosed and gas-checked variant does even better at long range, but has been disqualified for use in sanctioned competition, because of the gas check and ostensibly the copper nose. (Not vintage enough, I guess)
The third bullet from the right in my picture is a 485gr beast I believe was originally intended for muzzleloaders, like the Whitworth. It's covered in lube grooves, but those grooves also cause a problem to somebody who shoots black powder cartridge. To cover those lube grooves when seating the bullet, you'll end up with the majority of the bullet inside the case, leaving considerably less room in the case for propellant, unlike the bullets pictured to the right and left of it. If you're shooting smokeless, you're in much better shape and can probably do some wonderful things with the bullet, assuming your rate of twist allows it. I believe that it's the Lyman #457121PH mold that drops that bullet, I have a bunch of the bullets sitting under my bench, and may try them in the Ruger #1 someday. Moderator JShirley is supposed to let me know how they work in his Marlin levergun...
The fourth bullet from the right is another Marcel Lacelle swaged number, this time in 450gr configuration, with three lube grooves lathe-turned into the bullet. This bullet gave wonderful accuracy in my Ruger #1S, but again, it's a dead-soft bullet swaged from lead wire, more suited to black powder than smokeless. Having said that, I did load several of them using Lyman bullet lube on top of a load of Alliant 2400, and they did very nicely in the Ruger #1. Problem is, they need to be seated fairly deeply in the case, because my Ruger #1, and probably yours, has a fairly short barrel throat, and they engage the rifling pretty darned quickly with that particular ogive. (The 500gr spitzers don't have that problem)
The Marcel swaged bullets can be ordered from Buffalo Bill's Shooting Store in Orlando, FL:
http://www.buffalobillsshootingstore.com/bpcr.html
The fifth bullet from the right is the 405gr Beartooth gas-checked hard cast bullet. They're cast extremely hard, and I've pushed them to 2150fps in my Ruger #1 on top of that stout load of Reloder 7. Stout is a good word, both in the load, and in the recoil department. Accuracy is excellent in my Ruger #1.
The far-left bullet is a simple 405gr number cast and sold locally by a place called Space Coast Bullets, formerly John's Precision Cast Bullet. These do well for me in the Ruger #1 on top of a mild load of 2400 or XMR-5744, but if you push the velocities, they will lead the bore on you.
From right to left, the two right-most bullets are custom swaged 500gr spitzers from a Mr. Marcel Lacelle in Canada. He's one of the leading 1000 yard black powder cartridge shooters in that country, and developed those bullets as part of his competition goals. He swages them from lead wire, then turns the lube grooves on a lathe. The copper nosed and gas-checked variant does even better at long range, but has been disqualified for use in sanctioned competition, because of the gas check and ostensibly the copper nose. (Not vintage enough, I guess)
The third bullet from the right in my picture is a 485gr beast I believe was originally intended for muzzleloaders, like the Whitworth. It's covered in lube grooves, but those grooves also cause a problem to somebody who shoots black powder cartridge. To cover those lube grooves when seating the bullet, you'll end up with the majority of the bullet inside the case, leaving considerably less room in the case for propellant, unlike the bullets pictured to the right and left of it. If you're shooting smokeless, you're in much better shape and can probably do some wonderful things with the bullet, assuming your rate of twist allows it. I believe that it's the Lyman #457121PH mold that drops that bullet, I have a bunch of the bullets sitting under my bench, and may try them in the Ruger #1 someday. Moderator JShirley is supposed to let me know how they work in his Marlin levergun...
The fourth bullet from the right is another Marcel Lacelle swaged number, this time in 450gr configuration, with three lube grooves lathe-turned into the bullet. This bullet gave wonderful accuracy in my Ruger #1S, but again, it's a dead-soft bullet swaged from lead wire, more suited to black powder than smokeless. Having said that, I did load several of them using Lyman bullet lube on top of a load of Alliant 2400, and they did very nicely in the Ruger #1. Problem is, they need to be seated fairly deeply in the case, because my Ruger #1, and probably yours, has a fairly short barrel throat, and they engage the rifling pretty darned quickly with that particular ogive. (The 500gr spitzers don't have that problem)
The Marcel swaged bullets can be ordered from Buffalo Bill's Shooting Store in Orlando, FL:
http://www.buffalobillsshootingstore.com/bpcr.html
The fifth bullet from the right is the 405gr Beartooth gas-checked hard cast bullet. They're cast extremely hard, and I've pushed them to 2150fps in my Ruger #1 on top of that stout load of Reloder 7. Stout is a good word, both in the load, and in the recoil department. Accuracy is excellent in my Ruger #1.
The far-left bullet is a simple 405gr number cast and sold locally by a place called Space Coast Bullets, formerly John's Precision Cast Bullet. These do well for me in the Ruger #1 on top of a mild load of 2400 or XMR-5744, but if you push the velocities, they will lead the bore on you.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Gewehr - hearty thanks for such excellent detail on those - very much appreciated.
The Lacelle bullets sound like items made with great TLC - not to mention being I have to imagine - pricey!!!
Ahh - Beartooth eh for the gascheck - I must see if I can get some tho had hoped to cast. Anyways - glad to have the info
Thx once more oh 45-70 guru
The Lacelle bullets sound like items made with great TLC - not to mention being I have to imagine - pricey!!!
Ahh - Beartooth eh for the gascheck - I must see if I can get some tho had hoped to cast. Anyways - glad to have the info
Thx once more oh 45-70 guru
If I could cast the Lacelle bullets, I would.
I pay $6.95 per bag of 25 of those beautiful projectiles. He even stamps his monogram on the base of them, which probably accounts for $1.00 of the cost per 25.
Truthfully, if a person was of a bend to cast a super .45-70/.45-90/.45-100/.45-110/.45-120 long range bullet, here's the one that's making a splash on the scene. It's called the NASA bullet, with a fairly high BC, only one wide lube groove, and the moulds are available. I'd like to find somebody who could cast them for me, I'm pretty much done casting these days. The bullets, and the numbers they generate, leads me to believe somebody's on the right track, and I really should get more involved with them. Note that they're strictly a single-shot proposition, the nose would probably raise hell with the primers in tube-fed leverguns.
The report on the bullets:
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul.../Dan_Theodore_NASA_Bullet_Report_MAR_2005.htm
I pay $6.95 per bag of 25 of those beautiful projectiles. He even stamps his monogram on the base of them, which probably accounts for $1.00 of the cost per 25.
Truthfully, if a person was of a bend to cast a super .45-70/.45-90/.45-100/.45-110/.45-120 long range bullet, here's the one that's making a splash on the scene. It's called the NASA bullet, with a fairly high BC, only one wide lube groove, and the moulds are available. I'd like to find somebody who could cast them for me, I'm pretty much done casting these days. The bullets, and the numbers they generate, leads me to believe somebody's on the right track, and I really should get more involved with them. Note that they're strictly a single-shot proposition, the nose would probably raise hell with the primers in tube-fed leverguns.
The report on the bullets:
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul.../Dan_Theodore_NASA_Bullet_Report_MAR_2005.htm
lawson
Member
i love the .45-70. i was raised to have an affection for the cartridges that have worked solidly for the past hundred years or more (.45 long colt, .38 special, .30-30, .30-06, .45-70, etc.). the .45-70 fits nicely in the "why not?" category. it also is great for hunting larger game, as i use mine for elk, and for long-range target shooting (when you wanna play Quigley).
and it will shoot through a dumpster, there used to be one someone left at the spot we used to shoot at when i was a kid, and dad's Remington rolling-block carbine would punch nice clean holes through both sides.
and it will shoot through a dumpster, there used to be one someone left at the spot we used to shoot at when i was a kid, and dad's Remington rolling-block carbine would punch nice clean holes through both sides.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
That looks one heck of a bullet Gewehr - and I see in the page from the link a mention of Paul Jones - wondering if that is our Paul ''Fitz'' Jones.
545 weight region - oh my - that is one heavy pill! If I had enough stock of raw materials I'd even consider some casting but then too is the problem of sizing - to I expect 0.459. Not sure how you'd deal with that length.
Fascinating anyways - I expect I'll muddle on just enjoying my simple 405 stuff!
545 weight region - oh my - that is one heavy pill! If I had enough stock of raw materials I'd even consider some casting but then too is the problem of sizing - to I expect 0.459. Not sure how you'd deal with that length.
Fascinating anyways - I expect I'll muddle on just enjoying my simple 405 stuff!
shane justice
Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2005
- Messages
- 100
Shiloh Sharp Quigley in 45-70...damn fine gun...all Shiloh's are...in my world...the best of the best....worth every cent....
If you wanna shoot game...it will kill them...but I recommend a lighter gun to carry afield...
MAybe a #1 or #3...
I think the Quigley is 13# or better...
Nothing better than a 45-70....
Shane
If you wanna shoot game...it will kill them...but I recommend a lighter gun to carry afield...
MAybe a #1 or #3...
I think the Quigley is 13# or better...
Nothing better than a 45-70....
Shane
the 45-70 at 2 miles
A REALLY interesting read.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook.htm
using a gun similar to my trapdoor:
A REALLY interesting read.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook.htm
using a gun similar to my trapdoor:
Richard.Howe
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2003
- Messages
- 887
Oh, BABY!
Who makes that mama, and does it have to live within factory ammo limits?
Thanks,
Rich
Who makes that mama, and does it have to live within factory ammo limits?
Thanks,
Rich
shane justice
Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2005
- Messages
- 100
Is that is a Ped?
Does it have to be loaded HOT?
THe great thing about the old BP rounds...is there is no need to load to crazy pressures or speeds....Moderate velocities..and a +500 grain bullet will do the work...
Pointy bullets...the Lyman Postell....will punch tickets all the way out to a thousand or better....
Shane
Does it have to be loaded HOT?
THe great thing about the old BP rounds...is there is no need to load to crazy pressures or speeds....Moderate velocities..and a +500 grain bullet will do the work...
Pointy bullets...the Lyman Postell....will punch tickets all the way out to a thousand or better....
Shane
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I'm looking for a 1895 to start with, with plans of eventually getting this done to it if I can convince myself to spend the money on it.
And again..... Why? Because you can......
But yes, doesn't do a lot of good in Texas.....
And again..... Why? Because you can......
But yes, doesn't do a lot of good in Texas.....
db_tanker
Member
SIGMan...you should ALWAYS have a 45-70 here in Texas....dem armadillers can get ornery...
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
db_tanker said:SIGMan...you should ALWAYS have a 45-70 here in Texas....dem armadillers can get ornery...
See, that's what I was thinking.... I knew I'd need one for something.
Because it's about NEED right ?
The Sharps Model 1874 is offered by several makers these days.
You can go top end, like a Shiloh Sharps or C. Sharps, to the tune of $5K if you want. Or you can get a Pedersoli, Uberti, Taylor, or Tri-Star reproduction, down to about $900. I've got about $1100 into this Taylor, but I had to have the heavy octagon 32" barrel, double set triggers, and Creedmoor/globe sight combination.
I ran a couple of my stout Ruger #1 loads in the Sharps, mainly a 405gr gas-check Beartooth bullet on top of Reloder #7, chronographed at 2150fps from my Ruger's 22" barrel. Gawd only knows what velocities I got out of the Sharps' 32" barrel. The rifle had no problems. My shoulder, however, realized that the crescent steel buttplate wasn't the proper thing to have on my shoulder if I planned on shooting many more of those rounds. Ouch! Hence the Ruger's nice recoil pad, in hindsight.
I plan on running nothing but black powder loads in my Sharps. I get better accuracy, and although you still get a lot of recoil with a 500gr bullet, it's a slow shove, vs. a painful jab. Something magical about lobbing a 500gr spitzer along at 1200fps, reaching way out there after that big arc, too.
You can go top end, like a Shiloh Sharps or C. Sharps, to the tune of $5K if you want. Or you can get a Pedersoli, Uberti, Taylor, or Tri-Star reproduction, down to about $900. I've got about $1100 into this Taylor, but I had to have the heavy octagon 32" barrel, double set triggers, and Creedmoor/globe sight combination.
I ran a couple of my stout Ruger #1 loads in the Sharps, mainly a 405gr gas-check Beartooth bullet on top of Reloder #7, chronographed at 2150fps from my Ruger's 22" barrel. Gawd only knows what velocities I got out of the Sharps' 32" barrel. The rifle had no problems. My shoulder, however, realized that the crescent steel buttplate wasn't the proper thing to have on my shoulder if I planned on shooting many more of those rounds. Ouch! Hence the Ruger's nice recoil pad, in hindsight.
I plan on running nothing but black powder loads in my Sharps. I get better accuracy, and although you still get a lot of recoil with a 500gr bullet, it's a slow shove, vs. a painful jab. Something magical about lobbing a 500gr spitzer along at 1200fps, reaching way out there after that big arc, too.
db_tanker said:SIGMan...you should ALWAYS have a 45-70 here in Texas....dem armadillers can get ornery...
I used a similar justification for a serious problem we have here in Missouri,
field mice, they've been know to turn on you.
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