45-70

[bad_aim_billy]

then shoot it with a 45-70 jogging along at a mere 1250 fps... Let me know if you ever manage to stop one. I think we ran out of milk jugs at about 11!

So, I take it a regular lower-powered round, like the 405 grain Remington soft point at 1330 fps, would be acceptable for big game? 1600 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle doesn't seem like very much for elk or bear, or is this a case of the numbers not really telling the whole story?

 

[1911Tuner]

or is this a case of the numbers not really telling the whole story?

Numbers alone..."Paper Ballistics"...rarely give the whole story. On paper, the .223/55/3200 beats the .44 Magnum/240/1300 round, but which would you believe to cause the most damage...A light, fast hp bullet that penetrates 3 inches deep and blows up...or slow, heavy solid that will plow through the average Whitetail lengthwise?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Remington 405 factory ammo...great for deer, but the bullet is a little soft for really big game (moose, bear, etc.).

It can and does work....but I have heard of a few shoulder shots not going so well (lack of penetration)

Replace that soft point Remington bullet with a hard cast lead...and 1330 fps is plenty for just about anything I can think of.

 

[TomADC]

I shoot two 45-70's a Trapdoor and a Sharps soon a Marlin I hope.
I shoot BP in the trapdoor & I'm working on some sub 29,000 c.u.p. loads for the Sharps using IMR 3031 & Varget powders.

 

[JustsayMo]

So, I take it a regular lower-powered round, like the 405 grain Remington soft point at 1330 fps, would be acceptable for big game? 1600 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle doesn't seem like very much for elk or bear, or is this a case of the numbers not really telling the whole story?

I used to be a fast and skinny bullet hunter - depending on bullet expansion, shock and "energy." Real world experience didn't mesh with the hype. Critters didn't always fall over quick or leave impressive blood trails with good hits from zippy little bullets.

After seeing another member of our camp take a deer with a (lowly-or so I thought at the time) big bore levergun and later another take an Elk with a blackpowder load in his Sharps with very impressive results, DRT - literal bang flops... I began questioning what I read in magazines and on the internet. My experience since my conversion seems to contradict the magazine ads - big slow bullets with rainbow trajectories CAN kill critters and do it impressively.

A theory I've come to agree with is that a fast skinny bullet sends the animals system into shock instantly, locking enough oxygen in the brain and muscles to skedaddle quite a ways before realizing he's dead. The gut goo from the shock cavity plugs up the entrance hole and the exit hole if it happened to exit - which in my experience isn't a certainty with fast bullets which seem to not travel in a straight line inside a critter. So you end up with a critter amped up in full flight mode that isn't bleeding much resulting in a grid search rather than a track.

FWIW, arrows generate very little energy but kill amazingly well. One of the fastest Black Bear kills I've ever seen was a 15 yard archery kill that hit the 'off switch' and the Bear fell in his shadow.

 

[schlockinz]

Big slow bullets will generate a lot of penetration with little expansion. This is made up for with the flat face of the bullets and diameter of them as well. This makes an impressive wound channel and should be able to penetrate most anything in NA all the way through, as long as the bullet is good.

FWIW, what I've read about the original BP loads, they were supposed to be lethal on humans at a range of 3500 yards, and the bullet would enter at a 30 degree angle at that point...impressive.

 

[Maverick223]

Big slow bullets will generate a lot of penetration with little expansion.

...and big fast (by BP .45-70 standards) bullets will generate a lot of penetration with a good bit of expansion. I like 300gr. bullets driven fast for deer, and heavier (but still relatively fast) projectiles for anything larger. That said, any .45-70Govt. load does pretty decent on most any NA game IMO.

 

[bad_aim_billy]

Remington 405 factory ammo...great for deer, but the bullet is a little soft for really big game (moose, bear, etc.).

It can and does work....but I have heard of a few shoulder shots not going so well (lack of penetration)

Replace that soft point Remington bullet with a hard cast lead...and 1330 fps is plenty for just about anything I can think of.

That's what I figured, and why I asked the question in the first place. It seems that for factory offerings, it's either the loads like the Remingtons, which seem a bit light in bullet construction for a shoulder shot, or +P offerings with more recoil than I would like. Doesn't seem to be too much in between. I guess if I ever get one and can reload for it, a cast bullet at 14-1600 would be about right as far as the power/recoil ratio goes. Ah well, more guns and calibers I can't afford...

 

[MCMXI]

1858, would you post the out come? Just may help me make my mind up on what 45-70 I'll purchase.

I started a thread showing the results comparing the Guide Gun to the XLR.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6297298#post6297298

I'm seriously going to consider cutting the XLR barrel down to 18.5" or 20" to make it more "handy" and more aesthetically pleasing. The extra 5-1/2" is good for around 75 fps it seems ... which can probably be made up with 0.5gr of powder or thereabouts.

 

[Baldeagle]

If only if there weren't so many choices... The 1895GBL, 1895 LTDIII, and the cowboy models... all have a place in my world... one at a time of course...

 

[Maverick223]

I'm seriously going to consider cutting the XLR barrel down to 18.5" or 20" to make it more "handy" and more aesthetically pleasing.

I see your point, but why do that when you already have a GG?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I'm seriously going to consider cutting the XLR barrel down to 18.5" or 20" to make it more "handy" and more aesthetically pleasing.

I'd go with 20"...

 

[FoMoGo]

A little reading that put a smile on my face...
http://the4570inafrica.blogspot.com/


Jim

 

[Big Boomer]

Cowboy

I've had mine now for a couple of years, great gun. I love the longer bbl but there is a HUGE disappointment.

I was told this gun was going to knock my fillings loose, breath fire out the front end and I would be badly bruised and beaten if I didn't take extra precaution for recoil and to avoid the hot loads unless I was utterly insane.

Folks, none of that happened. I was quite frankly looking for an ass kicker, now I am left wanting. I was ready to say this gun is as big as I ever want to go. Now I have myself looking at a 460 Weatherby mag and then ask but then what the hell would I hunt with it?!

It sorta like a race car, if it ain't just a little scary what's the fun in driving it?

 

[MCMXI]

I see your point, but why do that when you already have a GG?

Mav, when I bought the Guide Gun and XLR, as far as I'm aware Marlin didn't offer a Guide Gun with a pistol grip laminate stock like the 1895SBL. Since the XLR doesn't offer much ballistic advantage, why have the extra length without the extra ammunition? To be honest, I'm not completely into the look of the 24" barrel without a full-length magazine tube like the Cowboy. Now that would be another possibility to improve the aesthetics and make something unique ... have a gunsmith add a full-length stainless magazine tube to the XLR ... sort of a stainless Cowboy.

I'd go with 20"...

I think that's the most likely choice since as Mav mentioned, I already have a Guide Gun. A 20 " barrel would be different while still improving handling. A full length magazine tube would be interesting but probably quite expensive compared to the easy task of lopping 4" off the barrel, crowning the muzzle and drilling/tapping for the front sight.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I've had mine now for a couple of years, great gun. I love the longer bbl but there is a HUGE disappointment.

I was told this gun was going to knock my fillings loose, breath fire out the front end and I would be badly bruised and beaten if I didn't take extra precaution for recoil and to avoid the hot loads unless I was utterly insane.

Folks, none of that happened. I was quite frankly looking for an ass kicker, now I am left wanting. I was ready to say this gun is as big as I ever want to go. Now I have myself looking at a 460 Weatherby mag and then ask but then what the hell would I hunt with it?!

It sorta like a race car, if it ain't just a little scary what's the fun in driving it?

I agree up to a point...the recoil is a bit blown out of proportion.

But with hot loaded 405 grain bullets...the recoil is stout. It is widely accepted that hot loads with 400 grain class bullets have the most recoil. The 500+ grain bullets at 1,550 fps have a good shove to them...but its just that, a good shove.

460...naaa, get a good 458 Win Mag. I have an old Model 70 in 458 and I don't shoot it much at all (nothing to hunt with it around here)...but I wouldn't sell it for anything.

 

[Maverick223]

I'm not completely into the look of the 24" barrel without a full-length magazine tube like the Cowboy. Now that would be another possibility to improve the aesthetics and make something unique ... have a gunsmith add a full-length stainless magazine tube to the XLR ... sort of a stainless Cowboy.

I rather like that idea, but as you mentioned that might get expensive quick.

 

[Hank Dodge]

I've had an 1895SS for many years. It loves the Remington CoreLock 350 grain JHP rounds. It's one ragged hole from the bench at a hundred with those.

I've shot the Cowboy quite a bit too. They are also a fine rifle. In fact, I think they balance better with the longer barrel and mag tube. If I was to buy one now, it would probably be the Cowboy. I prefer the more streamlined stock as well. It will shoot jacketed as well as lead just fine with the cut rifling.

 

[Baldeagle]

Well Guys, Today was the day.It was a long and thought out decision. I had the Gunshop order the 1895 CB(cowboy)..$639.00 + tax. In a few months, I'll go back and get the 1895GBL .. Again, thanks to all for your knowledge,opinions and pics in your post that assisted me in my quest for a 45-70 lever actioned rifle.

 

[Maverick223]

Good choice, don't for review+photos+targets.

 

[lopezni]

awesome, i was gonna say get the 1895 cowboy, that is probably the best looking Marlin ever.

 

[Maverick223]

...that is probably the best looking Marlin ever.

Agreed, perhaps not the most practical (but you'll have that covered with the GBL), but IMO it is definitely the best lookin' of the bunch.

 

[TAG2501]

I have a 1895 CB and the barrel length is no big deal, The rifle is very handy for the length. The first time I hefted it, I was surprised at how light it was. of course with heay 45-70 loads that means the recoil is pretty stout, but with cowboy loads its a powder puff.

Also regarding the rifling, the 1895CB has cut Ballard rifling, not the micro-groove, so its just as happy with cast bullets as jacketed rounds.

 

[smokeyandthebandit05]

Of all this talk I love Marlin Levers. As of now I only own a 336 in 30-30 and have the itch to get another one but dont know what caliber

 

[Maverick223]

As of now I only own a 336 in 30-30 and have the itch to get another one but dont know what caliber

You do realize you're in a .45-70 thread...right?...so whatcha' expect to hear?....45-70! In all honesty the .30-06 (added range) and .405Win. (added power similar to the .45-70) are also good choices, but I like .45-70 best in a lever rifle.