45 ACP bullet seating or resizing?

[fstfrd00]

I'm a noob at reloading, starting at 45 before moving to rifle. Anyways....Is this norma? I googled this and I heard it was OK; just due to the Lee resizing die.
FYI the mouth is ~.001 larger than the base. I checked in the barrel of my 45 and it fit with no issues.

 

[mdi]

Did you measure the diameter of the bullet? That's what is often called "wasp waisted" and is more common in 9mm, but does happen in 45 ACP with "oversize" bullets. Shoot 'em...

 

[Walkalong]

Is the "step" in the case at the bottom of the bullet normal? Yes, the sizer must size the case down enough to hold the bullet tightly. The expander brings it back up a little so seating isn't too hard, as well as doing some belling to help the bullet start.

Case thicknesses vary, so the sizer has to size even the thinnest cases down enough, which means thicker brass is sized down more than is needed. So, the expander is there to bring the ID up a little to where it needs to be, as well as flaring some.

If all the .45 ACP brass in the world was exactly the same wall thickness, the sizer could be machined to match, and no expansion would be need, only a slight flare added.

That step shows you have a tight sizer, or real thick brass, or some combination that shows up as that "step" where the bullet is seated to.

 

[Walkalong]

Oh, or the bullet is seated crooked, but it looks uniform all around, at least what we can see, so it looks good.

Welcome to THR.

 

[fstfrd00]

I bought .451 diameter FMJs. I'm putting a larger projectile (.451) than the case (.45).
It is pretty uniform, for just eyeing it.

Thanks for the welcome I look forward to picking the brains of the reloaders who know more than me.

ETA: For future reference is wasp waisting pretty standard on straight walled case brass?

 

[ray15]

It's pretty normal for factory rounds these days. I look for this factor on every factory round I see and it can be noticed, to one degree or another, on just about any pistol round. Especially when plated or coated bullets are used, as they will tolerate less crimp and need the case sized small to ensure adequate tension on the bullet.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I bought .451 diameter FMJs. I'm putting a larger projectile (.451) than the case (.45).
It is pretty uniform, for just eyeing it.

Thanks for the welcome I look forward to picking the brains of the reloaders who know more than me.

ETA: For future reference is wasp waisting pretty standard on straight walled case brass?

Doing things by eye is not a good practice when handloading. Sometimes very small differences makes a big difference. I suggest you buy calipers to check the diameter of bullets and of course you need them if measuring the OAL of the cartridges you load.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you like being here, I know I sure do!

 

[fstfrd00]

By eyeing, I mean the bullet seat.
My OAL is 1.230

 

[Blue68f100]

Looks good, except it appears that it could use a little more taper crimp. Looks like there is gap between the bullet and case mouth, by the picture. Use your calipers and see if it's slightly larger at the mouth. If so increase your TC.

 

[Toprudder]

Looks good, except it appears that it could use a little more taper crimp. Looks like there is gap between the bullet and case mouth, by the picture. Use your calipers and see if it's slightly larger at the mouth. If so increase your TC.

I was going to say the same thing. Just a little more taper crimp.

 

[fstfrd00]

Thanks for the help guys, I am now more confident that my gun won't blow-up on me at the range.
My first purchase was calipers and a scale.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Depending on what headstamps I use, I get these little Coke bottles in my 9mm loads. I like it. I know that bullet aint gonna set beck.

 

[Walkalong]

I load 230 gr RN bullets in .45 ACP at 1.260/1.265 OAL. 1.230 is a tad short. Might feed and shoot fine of course. One thing to think about when using load data is the OAL they used vs what you use. Seating deeper runs up pressures. Not as critical in the low pressure big cased .45 ACP, but fairly critical in say 9MM.

 

[Walkalong]

Looks good, except it appears that it could use a little more taper crimp. Looks like there is gap between the bullet and case mouth, by the picture. Use your calipers and see if it's slightly larger at the mouth. If so increase your TC.

Agreed. Just a tad.

 

[rfwobbly]

Thanks for the help guys, I am now more confident that my gun won't blow-up on me at the range.
My first purchase was calipers and a scale.

► Welcome aboard !!

► The calipers are used to measure several physical dimensions on the finished cartridge, besides the OAL. One of those other places is the diameter at the case mouth where the taper crimp takes place.



Or you can simply see if the finished cartridge will fall all the way into and then back out of the naked pistol barrel using only the weight of the cartridge itself. No pushing, pounding, or coaxing allowed.



► All new reloaders are worried about their gun "blowing up". Welcome to the club ! However, in reality your greatest issue usually turns out to be stripping ammo off the magazine and getting it to enter the chamber without issues. What we categorize as "failure to feed" issues. Correct physical dimensions are critical toward that effort. I surely wouldn't load even 20 cartridges until you can fire a magazine full without a single feed issue.

As fun as reloading can be, manual unloading 20 is a royal PIA. Manually unloading 100 could mentally scar a person for life.


All the best.

 

[fstfrd00]

LOL, your right 20 would be a pain. I have 7 ready to go right now. I will take your advice and feed them through first.

I thought 1.275 was the Max. OAL, and 1.19 was the minimum
so I took the average of the two.
I will go 1.26 in the future

 

[rfwobbly]

I have 7 ready to go right now. I will take your advice and feed them through first.

► Just so we understand each other, I would never, ever advise you to manually run loaded ammunition through your pistol to check feeding. That would be so unsafe as to border on dangerous. Everything we do in reloading is based on safety.

► If you want to manually test the feeding, then make 5 or 6 "test cartridges" which have NO powder and NO primer. Size the cases and seat the same bullet to the same OAL... then use those inert rounds. But this type testing can't mimic all the issues associated with the split-second feed action of an auto pistol.

The real test comes with the first magazine of your own reloaded rounds on your next trip to the range.

► The RN bullet is not typically a feed issue in 45ACP, but that is not the case with conical and SWC bullet shapes where OAL can make the difference between freely feeding and jamming. So I think you're OK on these first trial rounds. Unlike some pistol cartridges, optimal OALs for the 45ACP are well understood and documented.

All the best.

 

[reddog81]

LOL, your right 20 would be a pain. I have 7 ready to go right now. I will take your advice and feed them through first.

I thought 1.275 was the Max. OAL, and 1.19 was the minimum
so I took the average of the two.
I will go 1.26 in the future

OAL is bullet specific. Most of my 45ACP bullets are around 1.25. I try to load as long as possible, but you must make sure the rounds feed OK and fit into the magazine. You can't just assume 1.26 will work for all 45 ACP bullets. Hollow point rounds will be shorter because they don't have the round tip that is present on other bullets.

 

[LiveLife]

I thought 1.275 was the Max. OAL, and 1.19 was the minimum so I took the average of the two

By eyeing ... My OAL is 1.230

No, you cannot "eyeball" OAL.

Looks to me your bullet is seated too deep which may cause feeding issue. And if your OAL decreases when the bullet nose slams on the feed ramp, your chamber pressure will go up. Function check some dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) by feeding them from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. If the dummy rounds experience significant bullet setback of more than several thousandths of an inch, you may need to load them longer to feed reliably without bullet setback.

Different FMJ/RN bullets have varying nose profile/shape (ogive) and will require different "working" OAL. And if your barrel has shorter leade/start of rifling, you will need to load shorter.

Below is comparison picture of factory PMC and CCI 230 gr FMJ rounds and my reload with Berry's RN/HSM HP bullets. FYI, .472" was used for taper crimp - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ding-competition-seater.821810/#post-10558540

And there's a definite process for determining maximum and working OAL/COL:

- Determine the maximum OAL first. Walkalong has an excellent thread for this using the barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rel-find-a-max-o-a-l-with-your-bullet.506678/

- Then determine the working OAL by function checking. Feed the dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" until they reliably feed and chamber. The length that reliably feed and chamber is your working OAL you want to use for powder work up. Sometimes max OAL is your working OAL but often working OAL is shorter than max OAL.

- Conduct powder work up using working OAL. If your working OAL is shorter than published OAL, consider reducing your start/max charges. If my working OAL is significantly shorter by more than a few ten thousandths of an inch, I reduce my start/max charges by .2-.3 grains.

- Reduce OAL to determine more accurate load. After powder work up, once I determined the most accurate powder charge, I will incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" to see if the accuracy improves. Decreasing the OAL will seat the bullet deeper in the case which increases neck tension (due to case wall getting thicker towards case base). Especially with lighter target loads using lower powder charges, shorter OAL will often produce more consistent chamber pressures for more accurate loads.


Below is comparison picture of factory PMC round and RMR 230 gr Hardcore Match RN. Due to rounder nose profile that increases bullet base length, shorter 1.230" OAL was needed for working OAL to work with M&P45/SA/RIA/Citadel 1911. For my Sig 1911 barrel with no leade, even shorter 1.200" was needed which increased accuracy. FYI, .471" taper crimp was used for Sig 1911 barrel with tighter chamber - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rmrs-own-line-of-thick-plated-bullets.761471/

 

[Walkalong]

With auto calibers like the .45 ACP you want to adjust the taper "crimp" so that all of the bell is removed on the shortest cases, which means the longest cases will get a bit of inward "crimp" on the case mouth, maybe .001. It headspaces on the case mouth so we want to be careful not to over crimp.

 

[Dudedog]

Welcome to THR,
lots of great people here.
As mentioned OAL will be determined by bullet type and your firearm.
Some firearms just require shorter OALs than others for the same bullet.

Manuals will list an OAL for example 1.25 with a RN bullet. All RN bullets are not the same shape so your OAL may need to be different than what is listed.
Even with the same bullet your firearm may need a shorter OAL than what is listed.
Remember shorter OALs mean higher pressures.
Do the plunk test to determine the longest OAl you can use, then go a tiny bit shorter to give yourself some wiggle room.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rel-find-a-max-o-a-l-with-your-bullet.506678/

Start at start charges and work up.
If it takes a while to get someplace to shoot (it does for most of us) you probably want to load a ladder.
For example (Hodgdon data)
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.200" 5.1 716 11,800 CUP 5.6 844 16,800 CUP
So I would load up 10 rounds at 5.1, 20 at 5.3, 20 or so at 5.4 to 5.5
Shoot the lighter ones first of course.
When I do this I like to mark the base of the round with a colored sharpie (Wide tip ones work better, I got a pack from Wallmart with about 8 colors)
So I would mark the 5.1s one color, the 5.3s another etc. Then I make a label with the info for what each color mark means

Example of Label
.45 APC XYZ 230 RN OAL 1.25
11/08/17 Universal Clays
|||||| 5.1 gr
|||||| 5.3gr
||||| 5.5gr


By the way be happy if your sizing dies sizes tight, a good thing IMO.

I don't know what press/powder you are using but be carefull because with a lot of powders it is possible to double charge a .45 case and not have powder spill out.
Needless to say a double charge is a VERY bad thing. No need to be paranoid, but you do need to be careful.
Since it sounds like you are new to reloading I would just mention to try to avoid distractions while loading.
Another thing to watch for is the Squib load. The one that somehow didn't get any or not enough powder.
A primer alone is enough to drive the bullet into the barrel.
If this happens do not try to shoot it out. Put some oil in the barrel and drive the bullet out with a rod.
So if it doesn't feel right when you shoot it, stop and check and make sure everything is ok.
Light loads are fine as long as they function you pistol and will feel noticeably softer than factory ammo.
Medium to MAX loads will feel closer to factory ammo.
If for some reason recoil seems much higher than factory ammo - stop don't shoot the rest. Pull them apart to be safe.

Buy a bullet puller, and if in doubt take it apart.
If you have a question ask us, no such thing as a dumb question.
Be safe, enjoy!

 

[Jim Watson]

For example (Hodgdon data)
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.200" 5.1 716 11,800 CUP 5.6 844 16,800 CUP

You have to be careful "going by the book."
Hodgdon is one oddball. Note that they show data for the extinct Hornady Flat Point and its typical short OAL. That is ok if you still have some of those bullets but if you seat a roundnose to 1.200", you are going to have one real funny looking cartridge.
Even odder, Hodgdon actually shows 1.200" OAL for a cast Roundnose. That is just not right.

 

[Ru4real]

Is a bulged case mouth normal or ok in this instance? Yes. For example, bulge is more pronounced when loading 0.452" bullets in the 45 ACP.

When the empty case is placed in the shell holder and the ram moves up into the sizing die or bullet seating die, often the case is not in perfect alignment with the die and more bulge one one side of the case on a finished round is the result.

I know how to eliminate misalignment and uneven bulges, but I've learned that steps to eliminate uneven bulges don't make the ammo better by any measure downrange.

 

[thomas15]

Just to be clear on one thing, there are two kinds of crimp that we are concerned with, they are taper crimp and roll crimp. Roll crimp is usually for revolvers or rim cased rounds. 45 ACP (and 9mm) headspace on the case mouth so we use a taper crimp on them. Crimp does not hold the bullet in the case, rather it is case mouth tension that does this. Therefore, as others have said we do not put a lot of taper crimp on our rounds, just enough to take the flair out.

 

[Walkalong]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-crimp-in-two-stages.623417/#post-7699828

Another example of the "bulge" from a seated bullet.